From: virtuaPAI | Posted: 11/5/2002 5:16:51 PM | Message Detail

"- if it's a loose hold, it's better to juggle - if it's a counter hold, and no wall, it's better to "Drop" - if it's a counter hold, and a regular wall, flip a coin - if it's a counter hold, and an explosive wall, or cliff even, it's better to juggle - if it's a hi counter hold, and no wall, it's better to "drop" - if it's a hi counter hold, with any kind of wall/cliff, it's better to juggle"- Raigaa- I agree, and its very hard to choose between bayman and hayabusa. If you dont use any punches against hayabusa, then there are problems(for hayabusa),BUT most combos and set ups are started from punches(unless your using zack). hayabusa's punch hold ability makes up for his low leveled kick hold optiones, while bayman is sufficiently good in both punch and kick holds. we have to decide what intangible extras can sway the vote. I choose haybusa for his ability to use the punch hold as a launcher, and recieve environmental damage(more so than bayman). for the list on whether or not to use the launch or drop created by RAIGAA, shows that you have more of an option with hayabusa than with bayman, this also swings my vote towards hayabusa. --- controlling the dirt is nothing, to one who commands wind and rain"-storm-

From: drzero7 | Posted: 11/5/2002 5:20:16 PM | Message Detail

What's a "Drop"? Izuna Drop grab? --- ***The Offical announcer of DoAXBV! In Zack's Island***

From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/5/2002 5:49:30 PM | Message Detail

Who's ready to vote? Raigaa: not ready... ...as even SolitayreX isn't sure about the reliability of the combos HE used to generate those stats, I'm not sure about whether [juggle > drop], just yet. What he shows was potential obviously - IF certain conditions are met. Until more people report back about the "generability" of the stats, I'll have to hold off. The combo I'm basing the stats on is the [qcf+P, PP b+PK], but the [qcf+P] is apparently unreliable right now. Even with the [qcf+P], the typical damage is pretty close, IMO. If it turns out that the move is so unreliable as to regularly omit, then it swings "typical" damage back to the drop's favour. Yes, he does launch... but something about the arc trajectory tells me I shouldn't just assume it's as easy to use for a juggle as Ayane's, Hayate's, and Kasumi's. Because of this, I'm still of the opinion that an drop is easier to execute than a juggle, because the drop ignores environment entirely, while the launch seems pretty sensitive to the environment. Therefore, for me, the drop is overall the better choice - UNLESS you're on the top floor on DOATEC and haven't fallen yet (what if Hayabusa gets knocked down first? What then?). Based on what I now know (although i assume I still have much to learn), the Drop seems to be the better choice - not better for DOATEC, but better overall.

From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/5/2002 8:13:02 PM | Message Detail

After some testing: here's what I did: - Hayabusa vs Hayate (middleweight), sparring mode - random level select - set CPU 1st action to "mid punch", and experimented the standard "regular" [qcf+P, PP b+PK] Izuna juggle. - just repeated it over and over. Occasionally would knockback the CPU, so we can try it in a variety of random locations per level. Made sure to practice it out in the open, with CPU against wall, with Hayabusa against wall, both beside walls, around objects, downlope, upslope, away from cliffs, near cliffs, etc. Conclusions: - Using the [qcf+P] is... "iffy", to say the least. On dangerzone, with it's wide-open area, zero objects, and zero undulation, the combo is fine. Very easy in fact. But add ANYTHING, and reliability suffers. Most notably, when Hayabusa has back to wall. You'd think the wall would help, but the opposite is true - Hayabusa spins of axis, and the move whiffs. Sure, it hits sometimes, but I tend to think it whiffs more. For example, against a railing-type breakable-wall on Lorelei, where the cliffs are blocked off. If the opponent touches the wall, hitting an "invisible boundary", the [qcf+P] whiffs much too often. Ceilings are a beeyoch. The overhangs in Azuchi and Tao mess it up big-time, as does the cave part in the ice cavern (actually, that's more about the non-straight walls then the ceiling). Speaking of ice cavern, objects can be just as bad, but not as bad as I thought. In the forest however, the combo of slope+trees is not quite a good combination. Speaking of slope, even bumpy ground like the Beach area isn't good, but for different reasons - the last kick part can whiff. Switching to the [PPKKK] doesn't help either. Cliffs support the Drop all the way. For example on the Izuchi rooftop, the area is so small that unless at the perfect angle - going sideways - the combo will halt prematurely. You'd think that going against the wall part would help too, and it does - IF you hit the [qcf+P] successfully. Do that, and the whole thing can connect. But again, often the wall makes the [qcf+P] whiff right off the bat. The small area means that this occurs more often than you want it to. Hayabusa simply tosses them too far, so that he cannot get all the hits in. Small "plateaus" are a no-no for Izuna juggles. Similarly, other levels with small cliff areas, like Lorelei, usually don't have enough room to complete a combo - Hayabusa tosses them too far. He'd get 1 or 2 hits in, then knock them off. If you want to do it on Lost World (a good area, because there are less walls to interfere with the toss, with the exception of the rock pillars of course), you have to start from across a cliff, so that you don't run out of room too soon - not a big deal, because the fighting area like the water part is pretty big, as are the others (but again, that part with the pillars features the problem with objects). The tag levels are great though - relatively flat ground, zero objects. Just be sure not to throw the opponent so that they touch a wall, because that's where things get wierd. Wall angles can interfere, demonstrated by how Aqua palace causes more whiffed [qcf+P] than the other stages. Pancratium's uneven ground is only a problem if the timing is bad, and you've caught them too low so that the final kick whiffs - but this is an execution problem, the ground is not as problematic as the beach I find. And of course, going upslope on iron hell makes the combo tricky, but downslope the combo is golden.

From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/5/2002 8:24:19 PM | Message Detail

- Solution? Omit the [qcf+P] when you think it will interfere. The rest of the combo is linear, and hits fine. - Problem? Omit the [qcf+P], and the damage benefits disappear, for everything but loose hold - and yes, that's WITH walls. DOH! So what's the freakin' point then? - The juggle travels FAR. If it's a stage with a cliff, you often find yourself without enough room to juggle. Even if you have the room, objects can get in the way. The key is that the initial toss has to NOT hit a wall/object, before the [qcf+P] connects. So long as the [qcf+P] it connects, the combo is fine (assuming the [qcf+P] hit well). But right now, for me at least, the [qcf+P] is a HUGE question mark. And like I said - take it away, and damage wise, the Drop becomes better for everything but a loose hold, despite walls. Now again, this is just my findings after only a few hours - it should NOT be taken as conclusive. Everyone should perform similar experiments. SolitayreX provided us with damage stats - they show the damage potential of a juggle is greater. THIS CANNOT BE DISPUTED. The [qcf+P, PP b+PK] juggle IS more damaging, provided you can pull the whole thing off. The numbers don't lie. What I hoped to help contribute is the "provided you can pull it off question". IMO, the [qcf+P] is too sensitive to use, but if you omit it, the Drop becomes more powerful, damage wise. Because of this, I'm thinking that TYPICALLY: Izuna Drop > Izuna Juggle. ... and that you should save the juggle for DOATEC, or in cases where the planets are in perfect alignment (like on Lost World, when you have the room to juggle, without the pillars in the way), or you're playing just to fool around, and are OK with messing up the juggle half the time because of the environment. Now, let me clarify, the only reason that I feel that the Drop > Juggle is reliability. Assuming that you omit the [qcf+P] so you're as reliable as possible, Damage wise, they are about the same (the juggle is better for loose holds, and for hi-counters with a NORMAL wall, not explosive). Reason being, if you include the [qcf+P], the damage IS more, but the reliability drops like a rock. Not the tradeoff you want, IMO. But I give more weight to the drop because NOTHING can interfere. So long as you put in the time to master it (c'mon, it's not an SPOD or anything), it's too reliable to pass up, and what's more, is good to go in any stage, in any location, etc. And you don't have to worry about cliffs - they only ADD to the damage, and never mess it up. You don't have to worry about wall angles, or objects, or slope, etc... this is what I think MM2xl meant about "efficiency". You don't get extra damage off them, but they don't mess you up either. Now, after all this, it's not like the Izuna is LESS than an advanced hold. The drop is AT LEAST equal, and you still have the OPTION to juggle, despite it being the lesser choice to the drop, overall, and you STILL get cliff damage for all 3 punch holds, versus Bayman's just one (adv LP hold, although that does have big-time wall damage potential well). I'm really just playing devil's advocate here. But it's clear to me, that Hayabusa STILL has the best punch holds in the game. And again, at the end, it's not punch holds we are comparing, it's overall hold ability. Do not forget to consider kick holds as well, although Hayabusa's kick holds probably are toned down to balance out the punch hold greatness. --- (Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a freestep backward" Current Team: Anyone but Ryu. --- (Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a freestep backward" Current Team: Anyone but Ryu.

From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/5/2002 10:50:12 PM | Message Detail

Where are all the Hayabusa players? Anywayz... here's a new combo to try. The linker should be more reliable than the [qcf+P], because it's more linear... but I will test it out like I did before (and so should everyone else... players who let their sisters take their Xbox's away excluded). [Izuna launcher], [dash], u+P, u+P, PP b+PK. Not as stylish, but I think it's more reliable. base Damage ratings: loose = 75 counter = 80 hi counter = 85 Add 5 for angled wall hits, 10 for normal walls hit, add 20 for explosive walls, and most cliffs are 30. Using this, we can test if it's the environment interfering with the [qcf+P], or with the throw itself. Although methinks it's both. Results (on reliability) sometime tomorrow. P.S. The hardest part is the dash. Input too early and it doesn't come out, input too late and you can only do one [u+P] (which drops the damage too low to be worth it). You have to buffer it so it comes out as soon as Hayabusa recovers from the launch. Is it just me... or does Hayabusa recover sooner from a Hi counter, than a counter? And recovers sooner from a counter than a loose hold? It sure looks like it, because it felt easier to pull off when it was Hi-Counter. Maybe it's just me. --- (Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a freestep backward" Current Team: Anyone but Ryu.

From: virtuaPAI | Posted: 11/5/2002 11:22:20 PM | Message Detail

"Is it just me... or does Hayabusa recover sooner from a Hi counter, than a counter? And recovers sooner from a counter than a loose hold? It sure looks like it, because it felt easier to pull off when it was Hi-Counter. Maybe it's just me."-Raigaa- its noy just you. the same thing happens with all the chracters in the game for all the holds. loose hold = less recovery counter hold = medium recovery HI counter hold = high recovery its only slight modifications in recovery but it definitely helps in parry holds, back turned holds,and launching holds. I wanted to post this earlier, but i did not think anyone would see the difference between the holds, besides the damage intake....oh, I almost forgot, for the launching holds, the greater(loose, counter, hi-counter) the hold, the higher you are launched. --- controlling the dirt is nothing, to one who commands wind and rain"-storm-

From: virtuaPAI | Posted: 11/5/2002 11:48:39 PM | Message Detail

I have a question, are you guys using the inzuna launcher as a bonus option? or an alternative for doing the inzuna drop? if any of you are using it as an alternative, it would be easier to just use the inzuna drop, and not worry about how the inzuna laucher is effected by various obstacles. I was actually using it as a bonus option. for the most part, I would just do the inzuna drop, but when a wall(or any other obstacle)is in my range, I would do the inzuna launcher(with a string) to get environmental damage, which can exceed the basic 60 point damage from a basic inzuna drop. the strings I use are very simple: p,p,back+punch,kick p,p,p,p p,p,back+punch,p p,p,k,k,k by themselves they are lower than the 60 mark. but using these combos as environmental srings would give you 60 points or more(depending on the environmental obstacle and how far you are from the obstacle). for me, the whole purpose of even including the laucher situacion, was to tip the scale to hayabusa's side since they were tied. --- controlling the dirt is nothing, to one who commands wind and rain"-storm-

From: Kitsune413 | Posted: 11/5/2002 11:55:38 PM | Message Detail

you MAY be able to use a "don't punch" strategy to avoid Hayabusa's Izuna. Or you may NOT. Depends on your personal experience. If you can, Hayabusa becomes a "mere mortal" - in fact, maybe less because he may have the worst kick holds in the game. If you can't, then he becomes God-like. I still do most of my offense with punches against him. (Hayate's got good kicks for burst hits, but most hit mid and they're not that great.) He's good, better than anyone else, but it just depends how good at striking you are. His Kick counter though, is probably the worst in the game >_> No extra damage setting, (not launcher or stuns for combos) and very weak damage. 45. Better than alot. Jann, Hitomi, Kasumi, Ayane, Zack and Helena would like to do that much. It'll be REAL funny if DoA 4 have a boxing char. Basically, a char who can't kick. LOL! He is SOO getting owned by Hayabusa. It'll be one of the unfair char match-up in this game >_> You mean Hayate? =P Where are all the Hayabusa players? They're all talk and no show. ~_~ I don't know anybody on the board who is even known as a good Hayabusa player. BMG? I dunno. --- Anyways, Joy is more of a modern girl, she rides a bike and has big hooters (cups his chest) - Yu Suzuki