From: Kitsune413 | Posted: 11/5/2002 11:00:00 AM | Message Detail

I'm a little lost Raigaa, do we compare just the holds or all the move aspects including combos, throws, etc.

And thus the DOA3 ranking project has run into the speed bump known as Ryu Hayabusa.

In the end, this is isolate to holds only.

However, if a launcher is part of a throw, We have to consider that characters ability to juggle.

Which would be the only real way to compare the launcher holds.

Maybe thats where we'd need your expertise Master. I don't think many people know the juggles as well as you. hehe.

What is the vote anyways? we don't have our little list.

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Anyways, Joy is more of a modern girl, she rides a bike and has big hooters (cups his chest) - Yu Suzuki

From: CountBrass | Posted: 11/5/2002 11:03:55 AM | Message Detail

2 types of holds:

1)holds you plan

2)holds you react to

In the 1st category Bayman rules. His success rate is dropped slightly for mid-strikes, but his ability to get base 60 damage for every strike. Hayabusa has a slightly higher base due to juggles - but only half the time. Bayman definately has the advantage here.

The second category belongs to Hayabusa. Why? Because his strengths do not change. On reaction, or planned - his holds are just as strong. Bayman, on the other hand, becomes Leon in this situation. While it is possible to do advanced counters on reaction, in many cases you just don't have the time. In those cases, Bayman is weakened but Hayabusa retains his strength.

Lei Fang, since she was brought up, also loses strength when she holds on reaction, but not as much as Bayman. Her mid-kick hold keeps her a force even without bringing advanced counters into play - probably the strongest combo starting hold in the game.

Furthermore, She has the ability to play it safe with a parry and her advanced counters are stronger(again, that mid-kick) when you return to the first category.
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"A harem without Lum is an imperfect dream." - Ataru Morobishi

From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/5/2002 11:57:14 AM | Message Detail

even though this may be useful information to some I think we should really go back to holds. This is something that should be discussed in the launchers section not really on the holds...

No, this belongs here - we're talking about what holds give you. Sure, you need to strike to take advantage of it if it launches, but it's the hold that gives you the opportunity.

If the move launches, be it hold or throw, we have to assume that you're not just going to let them fall, that you're going to juggle them.

It's the hold that gives the opportunity in the first place. What we're doing now, is seeing what kind of TYPICAL damage potential they have.

I'm a little lost Raigaa, do we compare just the holds or all the move aspects including combos, throws, etc.

Right now it's just holds. But that doesn't mean you just take the base damage into account, you take into account:

1) base damage
2) enviro interaction (walls/objects/cliffs)
3) bonus damage (free ground hit/throw? free wall stun? free hit from behind? free hit period?)
4) parries, if any, and EXACTLY the benefits it gives. Don't just say "they have parries" and leave it at that - discuss the exact benefits. There are differences between parries.
5) advanced holds, if any, and exactly the benefits it gives.
6) free juggles, if any, and exactly the benefits it gives. Without discussing them, it would imply that Hitomi's MK launcher is the same as Hayate's. Right now, this is what we're focusing on, when we talk about the Izuna.

...etc. And these things are not necessarily exclusive from each other (for example Brad's HP hold gives #3, but only from #2, and Lei Fang's adv MK can be said to be a #5, but give a #3, which leads to a #6, and even have #2 a lot of the time).

From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/5/2002 11:58:39 AM | Message Detail

just for the record hayabusa does have Izuna combos that inflect more damage than his full izuna hold but we should focus on the full izuna hold aspect because this combo thing alone can make Haybusa better than lei fang.

Then give some combos... but remember not to become so focused on one thing. This is about hold ability, overall. And remember about "reliability", something you should consider along with "efficiency". If you can only do it on a couple of stages, on only a couple characters, and require strict positioning so that wall angles, objects, ceilings, etc don't get away, then it is hardly applicable. What is useful is TYPICAL damage, not some extreme isolated case.

Something I recommend is that if you can list a combo/string/juggle WITHOUT mentioning the stage, then it's "typical" enough. As for the "number of character's" requirement, so long as it works on at least the middleweights (exclude the 3 heavies), then it's legit.

But this is just my opinion. Some people might play only a certain stage or two (like they may play only the stages with cliffs), and some might require that it work on ALL characters, even the heavies.

From: Kitsune413 | Posted: 11/5/2002 11:00:00 AM | Message Detail

From: CountBrass | Posted: 11/5/2002 11:03:55 AM | Message Detail

From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/5/2002 11:57:14 AM | Message Detail

From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/5/2002 11:58:39 AM | Message Detail

From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/5/2002 12:08:07 PM | Message Detail

And just by the posts, I can tell that everything is revolving around the Izuna. Remember, we're not just talking about punch holds... we're talking about holds in general (it's the HALO EFFECT I was warning about).

As for if he's better than Lei Fang... that's already been decided I think. Don't know if we should go back. I think she won because of her parries (that work on 2 levels), advanced holds (for BOTH punches AND kicks), and her awesome MK defense. In comparison, Hayabusa only has advanced punch holds (that work on 3 levels), he has no parries, and his kick holds may be the worst in the game. Sure, he can get some mean juggles off a punch hold for big damage... but Lei Fang can get great (not as much as Hayabusa's Izuna, but still great) damage for EVERYTHING. And she can combo pretty good off a MK hold, 1/3 life or even more than 1/2 if there's a wall handy. I think that's why she won.

Remember that however awesome the Izuna Drop/launcher is, it's still limited to punches only. So he has awesome Punch defense - better than anybody in the game, perhaps. But his kick defense is ordinary - because of zero enviro interaction, it could even be the worst in the game (am I the only one who considers that?)

What everybody has to decide for themselves is whether or not his "punch defense awesomeness" makes up for his rather "ordinary kick defense". And not only make up, but overcompensate even, so that he's better than whoever we're comparing him against.

I guess the bottom line is to compare how:

- Hayabusa's punch defense awesomeness + ordinary kick defense

- Bayman's "great" (not "awesome" but "great") punch defense + "great" kick defense

Like at this point, if I should assign numbers for relative comparison:

Bayman:
-punch defense 55, kick defense 45 (his MP and advLP holds make his punch holds a bit better than his kick holds, IMO)

Hayabusa:
-punch defense 75, kick defense 25 (he's all about the Izuna drop/launcher potential)

...right now, for me, they both add up to 100 each. I think Bayman is pretty set - he punishes punches and kicks pretty much the same. He gets "great" damage for both.

Hayabusa OTOH, is not set - he punishes kicks MUCH POORER than Bayman, but he punishes punches not only "great", but "greater than great" - and we still have to figure out exactly how much. Better than Bayman (although let's not forget, it's still "advanced" damage as opposed to "normal" hold damage).

Do they cancel out? Does the great damage for punishing punches make up for the for ordinary damage for kicks? In short, Hayabusa's kick holds make him weaker than Bayman, but his punch holds bring him back up.

Do they bring him up enough to put him over the top?

That's the question.

How significant is the fact that you can use a "don't punch strategy" to avoid Hayabusa's Izuna (be it drop or juggle), but you can't use that same strategy against Bayman? If it's significant, you choose Bayman. If it's not significant, you choose Hayabusa.

Above all else, remember that this is about holds overall.

A summary for me is:

- It's clear that Hayabusa punishes punches better than Bayman.
- It's clear that Bayman punishes kicks better than Hayabusa
- Bayman punishes EVERYTHING to a great degree. He has advanced punch holds, AND advanced kick holds.
- you MAY be able to use a "don't punch" strategy to avoid Hayabusa's Izuna. Or you may NOT. Depends on your personal experience. If you can, Hayabusa becomes a "mere mortal" - in fact, maybe less because he may have the worst kick holds in the game. If you can't, then he becomes God-like.
- You CANNOT use that same strategy with Bayman. At all.
- The damage potential for an Izuna juggle is great... on the DOATEC stage. But what's "typical"...this question is the one we're currently finding info for (started by SolitayreX's example).

From: drzero7 | Posted: 11/5/2002 2:53:15 PM | Message Detail

This is IMO about Hayabusa Counters.

His punch counters are GOD! Super high launcher that sets for juggles or insanely powerful unescapable chain grab. His Punch counter is the best among all chars IMO.

His Kick counter though, is probably the worst in the game >_> No extra damage setting, (not launcher or stuns for combos) and very weak damage.

I guess this is to balance out his insanely powerful punch counter. He gets the best punch counter award and the worst kick counter award >_>

Bayman is good punch or kicks and both do good damage and combo set-ups.

Yeah, the reason why I said "Not sure" although I voted for Hayabusa is because if you compare the punch and kicks damage total, it's about the same. It just that the punch and kick counter damage difference is so great apart.

---
***The Offical announcer of DoAXBV! In Zack's Island***
*********Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball*********

From: drzero7 | Posted: 11/5/2002 2:57:05 PM | Message Detail

How significant is the fact that you can use a "don't punch strategy" to avoid Hayabusa's Izuna (be it drop or juggle), but you can't use that same strategy against Bayman?

It'll be REAL funny if DoA 4 have a boxing char. Basically, a char who can't kick. LOL! He is SOO getting owned by Hayabusa. It'll be one of the unfair char match-up in this game >_>

Oh yeah, the "don't punch" strat is quite hard for some chars. Some chars NEED those punches (like Christie for example IMO), and punches usually have faster frames the kicks for most chars.

---
***The Offical announcer of DoAXBV! In Zack's Island***
*********Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball*********

From: mc1287 | Posted: 11/5/2002 3:08:44 PM | Message Detail

there is an audible signal for a hct- he says "ha, shikeenoree(sp?) WHOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!" whereas in a normal hold its "ha --------- WHHOOOOORRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!" and hch and hct moves seem to go slightly quicker, or maybe thats just delusional me again(eg tinas ff throw is much harder to time on a hct, she says something like eeekay then she swings the opponent around VERY quickly)
---
"They misunderestimated me." George W. Bush
FINALLY on LEGAL steroids!

From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/5/2002 4:17:57 PM | Message Detail

What is the vote anyways? we don't have our little list.

The "official" vote hasn't started yet. It starts when we start to repeat ourselves, or when no body has anything else to say.

We're supposed to vote after hearing all discussion, because we're supposed to assume that someone else may know something that we don't. But we're supposed to hold back on voting until then.

I don't see how we can vote, because We still don't have figures on what a "typical" izuna juggle damage is like.

Based on SolitayreX's findings:

Hayabusa punch hold launcher with: P,P,b+P,K
No wall:
Loose Hold: 57
Counter Hold: 62
Hi-Counter Hold: 67

End against non-explosive wall:
Loose Hold: 67
Counter Hold: 72
Hi-Counter Hold: 77

End against explosive wall:
Loose Hold: 77
Counter Hold: 82
Hi-Counter Hold: 87

Hayabusa punch hold launcher with: qcf+P,P,P,b+P,K
No wall:
Loose Hold: 71
Counter Hold: 76
Hi-Counter Hold: 81

End against non-explosive wall:
Loose Hold: 81
Counter Hold: 86
Hi-Counter Hold: 91

End against explosive wall:
Loose Hold: 91
Counter Hold: 96
Hi-Counter Hold: 101

...I'd conclude that:

- if it's a loose hold, it's better to juggle
- if it's a counter hold, and no wall, it's better to "Drop"
- if it's a counter hold, and a regular wall, flip a coin
- if it's a counter hold, and an explosive wall, or cliff even, it's better to juggle
- if it's a hi counter hold, and no wall, it's better to "drop"
- if it's a hi counter hold, with any kind of wall/cliff, it's better to juggle

Of course it depends on other factors as well:
- how much can objects, ceilings, "angled" walls, slope, etc., can get in the way of a juggle. For the "drop", these are never an issue, as nothing interferes with the drop.

- if there are cliffs, a factor is if you even have the room (if too close to a cliff, the juggle might end prematurely, making a "drop" to be a better choice)

- and obviously, how reliable the juggle is. I've assumed the use of a [qcf+P] (which you can't even really use on a HP launcher) to tack on extra damage, but as SolitayreX reports, the reliability of that juggle linker is suspect.

A comment on why I didn't include info that was particular and unique to DOATEC:

If DOATEC was the only stage that existed, then juggle > drop, no question. And even if it was the only stage, that's assuming you got the angle right as well, so that the enviroment doesn't interfere. But... DOATEC is not the only stage that exists.

Another reason why I personally throw out the DOATEC-specific data? Looking at the data, Hayabusa has a much bigger damage potential (with the fall + sign damage, etc), on this level over Bayman (perhaps everybody).

But how long does that advantage last?

I'm assuming people play versus. IF they do, then Hayabusa may win one round in the DOATEC just because of an Izuna juggle, BUT THAT'S IT. Should there be a "fall", subsequent rounds will now begin on the lower floors, and the "fall-specific" damage (with sign and whatnot), will NOT happen again. I know that this may mean nothing for people that play 1-round matches, but when you play 5-rounds like me, the Izuna juggle is less frightening, because the cliff-fall on that level can only happen once, and affect only 1 round (as opposed to levels with multiple drops, or Lost World's infinite drops).

So even if you do "use" the DOATEC-specific info, take note that in a real match, it can only happen once to you. Play one (or even 2) round matches, and you're crapping your pants at the sight of Hayabusa, but play more than that (like 5), and the "typical" juggle damage all of the sudden becomes the only thing that's relevant, because you can apply it to nearly every stage.

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(Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a freestep backward"