From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/4/2002 2:57:35 PM | Message Detail

Of course it matters. Although I think everything is pretty easy to do in this game, I think reliability is a VERY important factor. Don't use yourself as a measuring stick for ease since you are an "expert" and you've been playing the series a long time as well. Fair enough... that's why we need more specific examples from everyone, like SolitayreX's, my example, and even mc's... ...that's one of the strengths of this thread. That there are more than just a couple offering their ideas and experiences. If everyone comes in, we can truly guage what "easy" vs "hard" really is and what's "reliable" and "not reliable". The combo I posted is pretty easy IMO, but compared to SolitayreX's, it's NOT as reliable. That spinning [qcf+P] is exactly what I'm talking about when it comes to the enviro actually interfering - it seems sensitive to objects and such. What we need more of is juggles of the Izuna launcher, that are just as applicable to the Izuna Drop, so that it can be a viable alternative. That way, we can address whether or not my original statement: advanced hold = Izuna Drop = base damage 60. ...is indeed true or not. If someone would post a reliable combo so that: Izuna launcher + combo > advanced hold. ...or whatever, it changes things. Maybe it was wrong to assume Izuna Drop vs advanced hold, instead of looking at Izuna launcher vs advanced hold. But this is what I meant when I said we should be specific. We need specific inputs, specific strings/combos, and we need the specific damage counts. Without the numbers, we can't really be decisive in anything. "Is the Izuna better as a launcher, or as a drop" is something we need to address, but we need cold hard numbers. We have the numbers for the drop - 60, 75, and 90. Pretty straightforward. For the other side of the equation, we have SolitayreX's [PPKKK], my [PP b+P, Free, u/b+K], and mc's [PP b+PK]. Others? Using these, I'd say that [launcher > drop] but considering the slight damage benefits, and considering that the enviro can interfere and get in the way, maybe not as much. But I don't think we have enough info. I can tell you right now, that an "normal Izuna launcher + combo" is EASILY more damaging than a "normal Izuna Drop". On a counter or hi-counter, however, remains to be seen. However, I also think that there isn't enough time to determine what kind of hold you caught. by the time it registers whether you got a "normal" vs "counter" vs "hi counter", your window for starting the drop is over - you basically have to be commited to one or the other (launcher or drop) beforehand. Actually, scratch that - the audible should tell you for a hi-counter-hold, but not between a "normal hold" and "counter hold"... but again, I really shouldn't be commenting so much on Hayabusa. --- (Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a freestep backward" Current Team: Anyone but Ryu.

From: mc1287 | Posted: 11/4/2002 3:32:41 PM | Message Detail

the special commands are input after a standard counter(eg B+F, then HCF+F, FC+F), and this makes the thinking time allowed slightly better. baymans advanced holds have to be performed as the move hits for best damage, and in the heat of the battle, its often hard to get a F, B+F command in successfully, especially if the opponent is mixing up moves nicely, as it is quite easily possible to get a normal counter in by reactions, but harder to hit an advanced counter BEFORE the move. i posted this before, and i think its the sole reason that hayabusa's counters have such a complex input: they can be input AFTER the extraordinarily easy to do launch. this means that after the first part is hit, you have about .5 of a second(more on a low punch hold) to react and start the hcu,fc movements. Baymans advanced counters, especially on a higher level of play(eg when counters are thrown out almost ENTIRELY on REACTION), are much harder to input in the time it takes a move to hit(11-20 frames, ie .2 of a second). --- "They misunderestimated me." George W. Bush FINALLY on LEGAL steroids!

From: SolitayreX | Posted: 11/5/2002 12:54:11 AM | Message Detail

I just want to mention that for a couple of hours, I was sitting in front of the TV, with XBox controller, and pen and notepad, trying out juggles from Hayabusa's punch hold launcher with and without environmental factors, and writing down notes and numbers from the screen readout. I have NEVER had to do anything like this in all the years I played the SF and SF spin-off games! WHAT HAVE I GOTTEN MYSELF INTO?? 0_0 ... There. Now that I've gotten that off my chest, on to the topic. :) ... "...This is something I think that should come up in the "intangibles" section, when we get to it. " Point taken. That would actually keep me inclined on giving Bayman the nod for slightly better Hold ability. If we look only at Holds at this time (and any unbreakable followups from them), the bottom line would stilll be: Hayabusa could give Advanced Hold level damage from his punch holds, Bayman could give Advanced Holds against both punches and kicks, not to mention a basic Hold against a jumping kick. However, the potential additional damage Hayabusa could give by using his punch hold at any of the three hit levels as a launcher and following up with a juggle combo definitely adds a wrinkle to the equation. "...I don't use Hayabusa, but since I do play random, he does come up from time to time. And the followup I tend to use is a: [PP b+P, Free, u/b+K] ... " Heh... I tried practicing that for a while (with d/f+P+K as the juggle starter), but I think I managed to pull it off only 2 or 3 times. :/ It looks cool though, and I think I'll practice that some more, and it seems to be a great way to practice incorporating a Free-Cancel into a combo. For now, I think I'll use [P,P,K,K,K], and [P,P,b+P,K]. I noticed MC1287 said the latter gives 10 more points of damage, but when I used both in juggles, I saw only a 2 pt. difference. Maybe there's a difference in damage ratings between our versions. I'm stuck with the US one. :( Anyway, [P,P,b+P,K] seems to give only 2 pts. less damage than [P,P,b+P,FR,b/u+K], while being easier to pull off. "I do like the option for ease of use though since someone may find it easier and more consistent to do the Launch/juggle than to it is to complete the IZUNA. " In my case, I actually find completing the Izuna drop easier now. I haven't really practiced timing the start of juggle combos from a high launch before. On the other hand, completing the Izuna drop is really only a matter of knowing when you're supposed to complete an input, assuming you're used to 360 degree d-pad motions like with Zangief in SF II. --- Here comes a new challenger! .

From: SolitayreX | Posted: 11/5/2002 1:25:20 AM | Message Detail

All right, I spent some time in Sparring Mode using Hayabusa in the DOATEC HK stage, practicing on Jann Lee. I only had time to test things from a mid-level punch hold. As juggle enders, [P,P,K,K,K] took 2 pts. less damage than [P,P,b+P,K], which doesn't seem like a lot. But [P,P,b+P,K] seems slightly more reliable, because it hits high,high, mid, mid while the former hits all high. On the other hand, [P,P,K,K,K] could send somebody farther away, which could be useful if you wanted to send somebody off a stage edge. It's possible to send an opponent off the top part of the DOATEC stage from a punch hold after all. It's quite obvious now, but I didn't think of it immediately. Hayabusa punch hold launcher with: P,P,K,K,K No wall: Loose Hold: 55 Counter Hold: 60 Hi-Counter Hold: 65 End against non-explosive wall: Loose Hold: 65 Counter Hold: 70 Hi-Counter Hold: 75 End against explosive wall: Loose Hold: 75 Counter Hold: 80 Hi-Counter Hold: 85 To basement (from DOATEC top part, crashing through glass wall and floors): Loose Hold: 115 Counter Hold: 120 Hi-Counter Hold: 125 To street (through glass wall, but not the sign from the adjacent building): Loose Hold: 105 Counter Hold: 110 Hi-Counter Hold: 115 To street, through wall AND sign: Loose Hold: 120 Counter Hold: 125 Hi-Counter Hold: 130 (cont...) --- Here comes a new challenger! .

From: Kitsune413 | Posted: 11/5/2002 1:34:41 AM | Message Detail

highest damage of environmental damage:tie? with the factor that when Bayman does mid-hold-punch back to wall in doatech does high damage but hayabusa has a few other places to do such advance holds... This also isn't considering that if your in a closed off arena like the Danger Zone, Bayman has alot more counters that knock people into walls. Then again, if Hayabusa uses his Izuna as a launcher. I guess he can too. heh. how complicated. ^_^ --- Anyways, Joy is more of a modern girl, she rides a bike and has big hooters (cups his chest) - Yu Suzuki

From: SolitayreX | Posted: 11/5/2002 1:47:59 AM | Message Detail

Hayabusa punch hold launcher with: P,P,b+P,K No wall: Loose Hold: 57 Counter Hold: 62 Hi-Counter Hold: 67 End against non-explosive wall: Loose Hold: 67 Counter Hold: 72 Hi-Counter Hold: 77 End against explosive wall: Loose Hold: 77 Counter Hold: 82 Hi-Counter Hold: 87 To basement (from DOATEC top part, crashing through glass wall and floors): Loose Hold: 117 Counter Hold: 122 Hi-Counter Hold: 127 To street (through glass wall, but not the sign from the adjacent building): Loose Hold: 107 Counter Hold: 112 Hi-Counter Hold: 117 To street, through wall AND sign: Loose Hold: 122 Counter Hold: 127 Hi-Counter Hold: 132 Now, I didn't think the qcf+P would work after the high launch and before more juggle hits. It seemed to hit only once and ended the juggle too soon when I was first trying it. If Raigaa hadn't posted his juggle combo, I wouldn't have kept trying to see if adjusting the timing was possible. THANKS a lot, Raigaa. ^_^ Although, I still can't reliably use qcf+P followed by P,P,b+P,FR,b/u+K so I will have to stick with: Hayabusa punch hold launcher with: qcf+P,P,P,b+P,K No wall: Loose Hold: 71 Counter Hold: 76 Hi-Counter Hold: 81 End against non-explosive wall: Loose Hold: 81 Counter Hold: 86 Hi-Counter Hold: 91 End against explosive wall: Loose Hold: 91 Counter Hold: 96 Hi-Counter Hold: 101 To basement (from DOATEC top part, crashing through glass wall and floors): Loose Hold: 131 Counter Hold: 136 Hi-Counter Hold: 141 To street (through glass wall, but not the sign from the adjacent building): Loose Hold: 121 Counter Hold: 126 Hi-Counter Hold: 131 To street, through wall AND sign: Loose Hold: 136 Counter Hold: 141 Hi-Counter Hold: 146 ---> which is a FULL POINT above 145 from a completed Izuna drop from Hi-Counter Hold off a Lost World stage edge. 0_0 --- Here comes a new challenger! .

From: Kitsune413 | Posted: 11/5/2002 1:49:50 AM | Message Detail

I just want to mention that for a couple of hours, I was sitting in front of the TV, with XBox controller, and pen and notepad, trying out juggles from Hayabusa's punch hold launcher with and without environmental factors, and writing down notes and numbers from the screen readout. I have NEVER had to do anything like this in all the years I played the SF and SF spin-off games! my pencil and notepad have been going through some excercise lately too. The funniest thing is that even though you just did all that work it only applies to somebody Jann's size. Somebody who is light i.e. Kasumi, Ayane, Leifang and Hitomi could take even more damage from his launcher. Somebody who is heavier like Bass or Leon or Bayman makes the launcher far less effective. and obviously, the damage is great if you can get it to be specific. Like out of the wall of doatech hq, through the sign and onto the street. But if your near the edge of the lost world the Izuna Drop is the better choice. So in the end you have to decide what you'll do based on the size of your opponent and your environmental location... and they say DOA has no depth... heh. --- Anyways, Joy is more of a modern girl, she rides a bike and has big hooters (cups his chest) - Yu Suzuki

From: SolitayreX | Posted: 11/5/2002 2:37:29 AM | Message Detail

There are a few things that I want to note. For one thing, I won't claim to be able to pull off those juggles from a punch hold launcher reliably enough just yet. If we're going to take a loot at control inputs, and consider how it might be easier to pull off Advanced Hold type damage with Hayabusa's punch hold Izuna drop without the hassle of Advanced Hold control inputs, we might as well be consistent and consider how tricky it is to pull off a punch hold juggle that is much more damaging than the punch hold Izuna Drop. Objects in a stage environment would easily throw off a good juggle from a punch hold launch. NOT ONLY ground based objects either. At the street level of the DOATEC stage? The street signs ALSO interfere with the juggles. Who knew they actually affected gameplay when you're already on the street? Not me anyway, before now. Basically Hayabusa's juggles from punch holds are easily thrown off on that part of the stage. There are areas there where you could pull off good juggles, but basically it's tougher than on some other stages. I'll also just note a particular section in the DOATEC upper floor stage where Team Ninja obviously cheated with the physics and placement of animation. The outer wall that leads to the street section has arches, which are lower than the height Hayabusa's opponent is sent to with his punch hold launcher. In the classroom stage in Project Justice, and also the underground parking stage in Tekken 4, there are animations for when somebody is launched up but hits the ceiling (pretty funny looking too, IMO :). But for DOA3, Hayabusa's placement on the floor is just warped, accompanied by a camera change, so you don't easily notice anything unusual. So they just make it so the other guy is launched just beside the arch, instead of under it. Try putting Hayabusa with his back right at the glass wall facing his opponent, then hold a mid punch - note his placement on the floor before and after the hold. Shame on you, Team Ninja. :-p Give us "hit the ceiling" animation next time, please. ^_^ Now, giving really good damage by sending somebody through a wall and down through a building sign might be VERY impressive looking and it would easily stand out, but the conditions for that are also VERY strict. You would not only need to pull off a hold at an exact spot, but also be at the correct angle to a wall. In terms of gameplay, being able to give a good chunk of damage consistently without having to be at a very specific spot in a stage, would still be more valuable, I think. --- Here comes a new challenger! .

From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/5/2002 2:54:33 AM | Message Detail

"...This is something I think that should come up in the "intangibles" section, when we get to it. " Point taken. Another thing is that Hayabusa isn't the only one with "complementary" moves that create mixups. they all do, including Bayman. Heh... I tried practicing that for a while (with d/f+P+K as the juggle starter), but I think I managed to pull it off only 2 or 3 times. :/ It looks cool though, and I think I'll practice that some more, and it seems to be a great way to practice incorporating a Free-Cancel into a combo. Is it really that hard to pull off? I use it all the time... hey waitaminute... you're using the [d/f+P+K] as a launcher. If I remember correctly, that move always launches, but only gives a big launch of a CH. Perhaps you only tried it as a normal hit? Because in comparison, off the Izuna launcher, I find that the custom combo hits pretty easily. For now, I think I'll use [P,P,K,K,K], and [P,P,b+P,K]. I noticed MC1287 said the latter gives 10 more points of damage, but when I used both in juggles, I saw only a 2 pt. difference. Maybe there's a difference in damage ratings between our versions. I'm stuck with the US one. :( Anyway, [P,P,b+P,K] seems to give only 2 pts. less damage than [P,P,b+P,FR,b/u+K], while being easier to pull off. There you go. Take the most reliable combo, because the damage benefits of the less reliable strings are minimal. I guess that will be our "regular".

From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/5/2002 3:04:33 AM | Message Detail

It's possible to send an opponent off the top part of the DOATEC stage from a punch hold after all. It's quite obvious now, but I didn't think of it immediately. Thanks for the stats. I do think however, that it's the: "no wall" "wall" "explosive wall" stats that are the most important ones - the stats for the situations that apply to ONLY the DOATEC level regarding the falls to the "basement", "the outside", and "outside+sign" are too stage specific IMO (it gives BOTH wall AND cliff damage). But the no wall/wall/explosive wall is applicable to every level (with the exception of the explosive wall). But that's a judgment call to be made individually. And then again, typical cliff damage is still 30-40 points right? So that's still significant, because there are a quite few stages with cliffs. Provided you had the room to get all the hits in (before you knocked them off - sometimes you may be too close to the edge of a cliff to get all the hits in), it's clear the it's probably better to juggle than to do the drop. Also, you should try other levels as well. To test the generability of the stats, and to comment on how much you find the enviro can actually interfere with juggles, if at all. I'm thinking specifically about the trees in forest, the pillars in Lost world, the uneven beach sand, the ceiling while in the interior of Azuchi, etc... or simply the most general case where Hayabusa tosses the victim so that they hit at an angle against a wall (which could happen in any level), and throw them out of line with each other, making combo hits whiff. How significant is the fact that the victims travel in an arc, as opposed to the almost "straight up then straight down" trajectory of similar special launchers? I'm also thinking that say if you tried these on the Lost world, you'd really have to be specific about the positioning. In a real match, Hayabusa might often toss the victim over the edge, and performing the drop would be he ONLY choice anyway, because they're already over the edge, or so close the the edge that he could only get 1 or 2 hits before the juggle is prematurely halted. What's so specific about DOATEC is that it allows BOTH full wall and full cliff damage, at the same time. Also, what adjustments, if any, do you have to do for each specific hold? For example, the [qcf+P] should not be used for the HP hold. But other than that, how do these follow-ups differ between the holds (in terms of reliability, of timing, etc). Now, I didn't think the qcf+P would work after the high launch and before more juggle hits. It seemed to hit only once and ended the juggle too soon when I was first trying it. If Raigaa hadn't posted his juggle combo, I wouldn't have kept trying to see if adjusting the timing was possible. THANKS a lot, Raigaa. ^_^ Although, I still can't reliably use qcf+P followed by P,P,b+P,FR,b/u+K so I will have to stick with: You got it to hit once? As I said, the [qcf+P] linker is ONLY for the MP/LP Izuna launchers - the HP version puts the victim too close =P Kitsune: The funniest thing is that even though you just did all that work it only applies to somebody Jann's size. Somebody who is light i.e. Kasumi, Ayane, Leifang and Hitomi could take even more damage from his launcher. Somebody who is heavier like Bass or Leon or Bayman makes the launcher far less effective Hey... if it works on everyone BUT the heavies, I think it's legit. If only the heavies are excluded, then it means that the combo is the LEAST you can do for 14 out of 17 characters. --- (Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a freestep backward" Current Team: Anyone but Ryu.

From: SolitayreX | Posted: 11/5/2002 3:20:26 AM | Message Detail

"...but considering the slight damage benefits, and considering that the enviro can interfere and get in the way, maybe not as much. But I don't think we have enough info. I can tell you right now, that an "normal Izuna launcher + combo" is EASILY more damaging than a "normal Izuna Drop". On a counter or hi-counter, however, remains to be seen. However, I also think that there isn't enough time to determine what kind of hold you caught. by the time it registers whether you got a "normal" vs "counter" vs "hi counter", your window for starting the drop is over - you basically have to be commited to one or the other (launcher or drop) beforehand. Actually, scratch that - the audible should tell you for a hi-counter-hold, but not between a "normal hold" and "counter hold"... but again, I really shouldn't be commenting so much on Hayabusa. " Sadly, I tried paying attention to the audible cues from Hayabusa, but I don't think they would work in time. They do say something slightly different when they get a Hi-Counter Hold, don't they? :) But unfortunately for Hayabusa, the first part of his Hi-Counter Hold audible is the same as for his lesser timed Holds. :( On the other hand, I just tried looking out for the "Counter Hold" and "Hi-Counter Hold" on-screen messages, and I think, with enough practice, there's just enough time to input the command for the second stage of the Izuna Drop combo hold. I was basically getting my left thumb on the "d" D-pad direction ready to "twitch" the half circle up motion, but making sure to not go through if "Hi-Counter Hold" didn't display... ^___^ Now I only need to practice juggle combos that give more than 75 pts. of damage. You've got a LOT of great ideas Raigaa, please don't stop mentioning them. :) To note the relevance of this to the ranking topic though: With enough practice by a player, the flexibility of Hayabusa's punch holds would make them capable of giving A LOT of damage whether or not there is Hi-Counter Hold timing. This definitely makes Hayabusa's punch holds much better than normal Advanced Holds (if the term "normal advanced hold" makes sense). BUT... I think it's still a relevant question to ask, how much weight would that really add, if the other guy consciously avoids giving punches, knowing Hayabusa's kick holds aren't that exceptional by comparison? "You got it to hit once? As I said, the [qcf+P] linker is ONLY for the MP/LP Izuna launchers - the HP version puts the victim too close " Oops, I should clarify what I meant by "high launcher". I just meant that launcher that sends an opponent really high, like Hayabusa's punch holds, Kasumi's and Hayate's mid kick holds. I only had time to practice with the mid punch hold launcher. "Somebody who is light i.e. Kasumi, Ayane, Leifang and Hitomi could take even more damage from his launcher. " Heh... I'm done for now. :) I'll let others come up with even better combos against them. And also for other specific situations like combos from the high punch hold launcher. --- Here comes a new challenger! .

From: MasterM2xl | Posted: 11/5/2002 9:57:17 AM | Message Detail

even though this may be useful information to some I think we should really go back to holds. This is something that should be discussed in the launchers section not really on the holds... just for the record hayabusa does have Izuna combos that inflect more damage than his full izuna hold but we should focus on the full izuna hold aspect because this combo thing alone can make Haybusa better than lei fang. you know I was against this "tier" thing Raigaa but.. I do think some character's can have the advantage in some areas and disadvantages in others when you take a certain stand on playing certain chatacter's like when I mentioned earlier about efficiency..hayabusa's izuna holds takes too much energy to input when compared to Bayman's advance holds Bayman and lei fang are virtually equal in this department therefore hayabusa shouldn't be compared to Bayman IMO when I talk about efficiency it's almost like talking about tiers heh I'm no better =P that said... I'm a little lost Raigaa, do we compare just the holds or all the move aspects including combos, throws, etc. --- "Why am I always surrounded by chicks? You got me pretty good." Sol-badguy

From: DevilJin numba 1 | Posted: 11/5/2002 10:04:42 AM | Message Detail

LOL. Just to let you know Raigaa, I'm not a Hayabusa player at all. I was back in DOA2 but gave him up in 3 for other characters (and now my bro uses him). So the information I've put down so far concerning Hayabusa and Bayman is just from what I've known in the past/what my bro has done in fights (I don't play as Bayman either. Just to clarify things. From here I'm just waiting on the sidelines to see what people can come up for as facts to support both of these characters. It's getting really interesting at this point and can't wait to see who wins. --- Biased fighting gamer:Man DOA3 is shallow! Me:Play me in that game and see. BFG:"looks around" Uh...what was that?

From: DevilJin numba 1 | Posted: 11/5/2002 10:09:44 AM | Message Detail

Well M2xL like Raigaa said, for now we should just focus on comparing the holds. Then we'll gradually go on further and further till we finally reach the end at intagibles (which at this point, could take literally months!). Though that's cool. I'll definitely be in this for the long run (too interesting to pass up at all). --- Biased fighting gamer:Man DOA3 is shallow! Me:Play me in that game and see. BFG:"looks around" Uh...what was that?