From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/2/2002 2:04:48 PM | Message Detail

My third was Bayman. (my first and second were Leifang and Haybusa) There it is then. Bayman VS Hayabusa Kitsune, you present last, and with that post, starts the voting. But until then, here's my take on Bayman vs Hayabusa: ============================== Base damage: -Bayman normal holds: 47 -Hayabusa normal holds: 45 for kicks, 60 for punches (assuming Izuna) -Bayman advanced holds: 60 -Hayabusa advanced holds: none (for kicks) ...if you assume that both players are "masters" of their advanced holds, in that the Hayabusa has a 100% success rate, and Bayman simply uses his advanced holds - then the advantage is actually even. The base damage is the same. HOWEVER... Hayabusa's "advanced" holds are limited to punch strikes. Bayman's "advanced" holds catch both punch and kicks. Also, even though I assume both players are "masters" of performing their character's holds, the input complexity must be considered. It could be said that Bayman's is easier, and once it connects, it connects. With Hayabusa, even though he initiates it, he must do more work to get the same damage. Unless the Hayabusa is a scrubby analogue user! What about the enviroment? You know... big cliffs? - Hayabusa can get extra damage off cliffs ...from his punch-holds. His kick-holds have ZERO ENVIRONMENTAL INTERACTION. No walls, no objects, no cliffs, no nothing. - Bayman has ZERO ENVIRONMENTAL CLIFF INTERACTION. What about the enviroment? You know... wall/objects? Bayman can get extra damage off walls/objects, for: - MP - adv LP, 5m ...in comparison, Hayabusa has ZERO ENVIRONMENTAL WALL/OBJECT INTERATION. Jumping kick hold? Bayman = yes Hayabusa = no other considerations: - with Hayabusa, he has the unique ability to make you afraid to punch him. No other character can do this, like he can. This makes it hard for characters that rely on punches. For characters with good kicks, this is less of a problem. However, the "fear effect" of his "punch defensibility" cannot be understated - NO OTHER CHARACTER DOES THIS. - Although not as flashy, Bayman punishes kicks though advanced holds just as much as punches. Although one can use a "don't punch Hayabusa" strategy if they have the moveset to do so, you cannot use that same strategy against Bayman's advanced holds. His "fear effect" may be less, because it's less dramatic, but when you look at it on paper, he not only has "punch defensibility" but "kick defensibility" as well. OTOH, you can use a "switch between MP and MK launchers" against Bayman if he's using advanced holds, in order to foil hold attempts. Bayman actually gets hit, whereas Hayabusa would get a hold so long as he correctly guessed mid. ======================= As an aside: The smart thing for a person who uses "advanced" holds, is to stick to the b+Free for middle attacks, and use the advanced holds for the high and low levels. In this way, you effectivly counter the other person using a "switch between MP and MK" strategy in order to get the dangerous mid hits. That's another way of saying that while Bayman has advanced holds, he is not limited to them. Advanced holds do more damage, but they increase the number of "hold levels" from 3 to 4. Why fuss and risk getting hit? Why allow the opponent another viable strategy (switch mids)? Use advanced holds, AND keep the hold levels at 3, by sticking to the normal holds for all mids. In Bayman's case, his [normal MP hold] gets wall damage anyway, while his [adv MP hold] does not (ditto for Lei Fang, actually). --- (Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a freestep backward" Current Team: Anyone but Ryu. But for sure, Hayate

From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/2/2002 2:10:03 PM | Message Detail

And it's Bayman VS Hayabusa... --- (Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a freestep backward" Current Team: Anyone but Ryu. But for sure, Hayate

From: CountBrass | Posted: 11/2/2002 4:45:23 PM | Message Detail

Since Raigaa was nice enough to dish out the specific stats, it looks like I don't need to bother:) I'll just go straight to the nitty gritty: Bayman vs. Hayabusa 1)advanced counters vs. "special" counters "special" counters for a specific attack are better. This is because an advanced counter requires an additional initial input. The extra time this takes, no matter how little it is, can't help but interfere with performing the hold on reaction. The Izuna has a tough input to do, but while you are performing it, there are no outside factors to interfere with it - your basically only playing against yourself in that instant. The advanced counter takes place in a more dynamic environment where the difference between one initial input or two can mean either success or a whuppin'. One "special" counter isn't stronger than a whole selection of advanced counters, especially since in many cases, the advanced counter can be done on reaction...But 3 "special" counters is just too strong. I'm still considering whether or not Hitomi's two "special" counters couldn't be considered stonger, as well(oh well, I'll cross that bridge when we get to it). 2)Bayman's MP counter. Well, you gotta love the damage - but with you back to the wall is no place to be risking a hold. It's nice to give your opponent something to think about when they have your back to the wall, but going for this move will probably lose you more matches than it wins you - it's better than a basic counter, but it's not the best "special" counter to have. I'm going to give this one to Hayabusa. --- "A harem without Lum is an imperfect dream." - Ataru Morobishi

From: DevilJin numba 1 | Posted: 11/2/2002 6:26:13 PM | Message Detail

Well I definitely think both Bayman and Hayabusa are high tier holders, though here's my opinion on the strenghts and weaknesses of the two. With Hayabusa you definitely do have the ability to have your opponent fear throwing any type of punching attack at you. The damage that is gained from an Izuna Hold especially on Hi counter is really nice (90 pts.) for a hold as well. Also if he knocks you off a cliff with that move...god help you (on hi counter hold, that's 145 pts. of damage!). So essentially Hayabusa gets quite an advantage when on stages with cliffs (or anything you can fall off of that doesn't have a wall blocking it). You can also even start tag juggles off of it in tag battle mode if you time it right making it even deadlier. Though in terms of what makes it kind of disconvenient, the Izuna Hold only works on punches and not on kicks. So because of that an opponent that is using a character that has really good kicking attacks can throw off your Izuna Hold strategy pretty well. Also the timing for pulling off an Izuna Hold once you get the hold itself is kind of strict. So messing up can happen every once in a while. Also Hayabusa doesn't have any jumping kick holds or holds that'll throw people into walls or anything of that sort. He also doesn't have advanced holds or parries. The problems with not having parries for an otherwise pretty top tier counter holding character is pretty self explanatory. Though when it comes to advanced holds, while it makes sense that Hayabusa technically doesn't really need them since whenever he counter holds a punch (with easier commands to get the hold at least started) he'll get up to 90 pts. of damage on the opponent, he can't do the same with kicks. So he really can't have that same dominating power over kicks as well that Bayman can with his advanced holds. So not having them is still somewhat of a disadvantage for him even if because of the character he is, shouldn't really have them to begin with (if that makes sense). --- Biased fighting gamer:Man DOA3 is shallow! Me:Play me in that game and see. BFG:"looks around" Uh...what was that?

From: DevilJin numba 1 | Posted: 11/2/2002 6:26:23 PM | Message Detail

(Cont. from above) As for Bayman, he has it pretty darned good as well with his really strong and really cool looking advanced holds. They all do good damage (pretty much the same as Izuna), look painful as crap and can be done on all attacks that are non-hold resistant (which goes for like 90 percent of all attacks in the game). So basically when a Bayman player starts getting on the defensive, you better start getting really careful or you might eat up to 90 points of damage off of an advanced counter hold (on hi counter of course). Bayman also has a jumping kick counter hold and a mid punch regular hold that will throw an opponent into a wall for extra damage. Also not that you really will get it off much in battle but, Bayman's low punch advanced hold (my personal favorite) has the ability to throw opponents into a wall if their back is to one. Meaning that if you throw someone into a danger zone with that move on hi counter hold, it's 110 pts. of damage done to the opponent. Though with Bayman's strengths come his weaknesses. Now while his strengths overall outweighs them I think the one thing that holds Bayman back the most from truly being a REALLY good defensive player like Lei Fang is the lack of parries. The great thing about Lei Fang is that if she feels it's too risky to go for a hold, she can at least do a parry to at least throw the opponent off and set up for something else. Especially since you only need to worry about 2 different types of attacks for parries, it makes them even more useful. Bayman is just stuck with holds and advanced holds. Meaning that if he's fighting against say a Christie or Hayabusa player and they are throwing **** at him all over the place, he's gonna have a hard time slowing them down. Especially trying to do it with an advanced hold which you should only use when you're 90 percent sure they will connect. Also, advanced holds are a little hard to do since you have to worry about 4 types of attacks. Though if you do get them off and only use them when you're pretty sure you can get one out, the benefits overall definitely outweigh the disadvantage of difficulty of use. I won't give a direct opinion on which should win though since Raigaa says that we should try not to make any conclusions. So I'll save that for later. --- Biased fighting gamer:Man DOA3 is shallow! Me:Play me in that game and see. BFG:"looks around" Uh...what was that?

From: SolitayreX | Posted: 11/2/2002 11:05:10 PM | Message Detail

Hold Ability Ranking for Bayman and Hayabusa. My opinion is: Bayman > Hayabusa. Hayabusa's Izuna drop from a Hold against a punch at ANY of the three hit-levels (not counting a jumping punch) is very noticeable, especially also considering his main Izuna Drop command throw. But the damage from a completed Hi-Counter Hold is only the same as a Hi-Counter from Bayman's Advanced Holds. But while Hayabusa's high damage holds apply only to punches, Bayman does have the ability to give 90 pts. of Hi-Counter damage from BOTH punch and kick attacks, which lets him cover all the bases. Having to "watch out for Hayabusa's punch Holds" could really be thought of also as "not having to worry about Advanced Hold damage from his kick Holds". With Bayman, an opponent might not be focusing on avoiding the overuse of punches, but it's actually because he can give Advanced Hold damage against both punches and kicks anyway. Really, when Hayabusa's opponent is consciously avoiding using punches, they are effectively reducing the usability of Hayabusa's "special" Holds. That's something Bayman's opponents wouldn't even be able to do. Regarding the role of the different control inputs for the actual hold moves... It's obvious that other fighting games intentionally factor in the complexity or difficulty of execution of moves to their effectiveness or power within the game. Personally, I prefer DOA3's general slant towards balancing out the moves through their properties within the gameplay system. An overpowered move that is pulled off with a complex/difficult control input command just means as soon as somebody masters the control input, he gets to dominate a game based on his mastery of the control input, NOT outthinking or outplaying the other guy. I know it's a matter of preference whether somebody likes things that way or not, but I think it's a major reason for a lack of gameplay balance in some fighting games. Anyway, Hayabusa's Izuna Drop throw and punch holds, and the Advanced Holds, could be considered to have "complex" control inputs compared to most of DOA3's other moves. But I think somebody with moderate dedication could actually learn to use the Izuna Drops or the Advanced Holds pretty reliably. Once that's done, a "success rate" for pulling off the moves wouldn't really need to be factored in anymore. Otherwise we would be examining the usefulness of moves assuming only a part-time success rate (of just pulling off the moves) or assuming a high success rate (for "high-level" play). I've got some other minor points I would like to bring up, but I would have to post them slightly later. The "one" post limit would have actually referred to "one presentation" per participant, right? It's mainly to avoid back-and-forth exchanges and "arguments". But if it's all right, I would like to continue my "presentation" regarding Holds for Bayman and Hayabusa in a few minutes. --- Here comes a new challenger! .

From: SolitayreX | Posted: 11/3/2002 12:21:41 AM | Message Detail

Is it actually okay to respond to previous posts in a "presentation" phase, or could we now consider this as partly a "discussion" phase? This post is still a presentation of my case anyway, except I would use some previous comments as jump off points (Hayabusa's Izuna Drop, "jump off points", get it?). "Bayman has ZERO ENVIRONMENTAL CLIFF INTERACTION. " Bayman's Advanced Hold against low punch, with his opponent on the cliff edge side, would let Bayman swing around and send his opponent over the edge. With good range, and because it sends the other guy along a line, it's actually easier to send someone over a cliff that way than with Hayabusa's punch holds, which land him at a specific spot on the ground. Bayman and his opponent don't even need to be directly perpendicular to the cliff edge. But the appearance isn't as dramatic or the damage as good as Hayabusa's completed Izuna drop over the cliff. For what it's worth, when Bayman's back is right against a cliff edge and he connects with a basic mid-level hold against a punch, his opponent slides off over the cliff also (after the neck twisting move). "As an aside: The smart thing for a person who uses "advanced" holds, is to stick to the b+Free for middle attacks, and use the advanced holds for the high and low levels. In this way, you effectivly counter the other person using a "switch between MP and MK" strategy in order to get the dangerous mid hits. " In situations where you attempt to hold an expected strike follow up in a string, you could know based on your knowledge of your opponent character's move set to expect either a punch or kick. So even the mid-level Advanced Holds would actually still be useful in some cases. I guess it's possible for someone to mix up non-standard follow ups through Free Canceling, but they would be able to mix up strike levels that way also. If you were going to commit to a Hold at a certain hit-level because you do expect a specific strike, sometimes you might as well match the strike - whether punch or kick - with the appropriate Advanced Hold. I'm just mentioning this to explain why I do put some weight on a character having an Advanced Hold against a mid-level kick as well as against a mid-level punch. A few more thoughts: Attempting a mid-level hold with Bayman when his back is against a wall would be risky, but then so is attempting a high or mid level hold with Hayabusa when his back is against a cliff edge. Bayman's advanced hold against a low punch works really well when near walls and other objects. There are some places, like one recurring lower level "stage" in the Lost World, which are simply dense with objects that can be smashed into. Explosive walls can also be taken advantage of. Hayabusa's Izuna Drop punch holds? They're totally limited to standard Hi-Counter damage in Tag Battle and Team Battle modes, because the stages there don't have any cliff edges at all. ...... I've got one more post, but the next one is going to be only about Hayabusa's punch holds, and why I think they're actually very effective also. --- Here comes a new challenger! .

From: SolitayreX | Posted: 11/3/2002 2:01:29 AM | Message Detail

About Hayabusa's punch Holds. I've been focused mainly on his completing the Izuna Drop whenever he connects with a hold against a punch. But by just launching his opponent and not completing the second stage, Hayabusa also has an opportunity to juggle his opponent, which could also take advantage of walls and explosive walls. But I'm not sure they're that significant in terms of gameplay advantage, although I could be wrong. The best damage I could come up with was 85 pts., from a Hi-Counter Hold (just the first part), followed by a standard p,p,k,k,k into an explosive wall (tested in the Danger Zone). But at this point I'll bring up Hayabusa's standard Izuna Drop command throw, which actually gives more damage (80 pts. standard, 120 for Hi-Counter-Throw) than an Izuna Drop from a punch hold. I know we're supposed to be covering just Holds at this time, but I think it's also important to consider the mechanics of how some moves affect or COMPLEMENT other moves like holds, thus making these moves more effective. For example, I think Hayabusa's Izuna throw makes his Izuna punch holds more effective than they would otherwise be. Or for a slightly different example, if another character had the Izuna punch holds or something similarly damaging, but not a highly damaging throw, the impact of those punch holds wouldn't be as significant. When an opponent wants to avoid the Izuna command throw, he could consider crouching. But that would leave him open to mid-hit level strikes. He would be at high risk also against a good Hayabusa player (who has learned to reliably complete and time the Izuna Drop control inputs) by attempting high or mid level Holds. In any case either type of hold or even just a standing block would be vulnerable to the Izuna throw. Which leaves Hayabusa's opponent generally to try to interrupt with strikes. Most quick strikes are jabs or crouching jabs. Which is where the Izuna punch holds come in. So the Izuna Drop throw along with Izuna Drop punch holds are a GREAT combination ("great" for the Hayabusa player anyway :D ). There's another important factor, at least in stages with cliff edges. An Izuna hold against a high or mid punch drops off behind Hayabusa's side. But an Izuna hold against a low punch drops off behind Hayabusa's OPPONENT's side. So for example, if Hayabusa was on the left side of the screen and his opponent was on the right side, a high or mid punch hold Izuna Drop would land left of where Hayabusa was, BUT an Izuna Drop from a LOW punch hold would land to the right, behind where his opponent was. How is this important? If Hayabusa actually gets his opponent's back against a cliff edge, the other guy would be VERY conscious not to be caught by the Izuna Drop command throw. BUT just crouching wouldn't be that good either, because a mid strike or strike string that starts mid could easily push him over the edge also. Now what might someone instinctively do (possibly with some "help" from previous experience with VF and Tekken)? A crouch jab. But if the Hayabusa player anticipates that and counter holds it? WHAMMO. So in conclusion, I do think Hayabusa' Hold ability is "top tier". Although I still think that Bayman overall has the slightly better and more flexible hold ability. If numeric values are assigned, they would be very close. --- Here comes a new challenger! .

From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/3/2002 2:32:31 AM | Message Detail

A few clarifications: Bayman has ZERO ENVIRONMENTAL CLIFF INTERACTION. ...as SolitayreX pointed out, this is false. His adv LP hold has this ability (to a great extent), and his MP can have them fall off if they happen to fall near the edge, and "slip" off. I was too busy listing each hold under various categories, and put his adv LP hold under the "wall/objects" section, without realizing it should go in the "cliff" section as well. The MP hold off a cliff rarely happens, can't remember the last time I've seen it happen, but I can see how it sure is possible. Good call. Just like to point out: An Izuna hold base damage is equal to the base damage of an advanced hold. Not more, not less. Equal. Izuna hold = 60 base damage. An advanced hold = 60 base damage. Izuna is just so much more dramatic (and still... probably more demoralizing). Actually... you can say the same for the throw version. In terms of base damage, The izuna throw is the most damaging throw in the game... but it's not the ONLY most damaging throw in the game. But that's yet another bridge to be crossed later as well. Where the Izuna can perform more damage, is off of cliffs. But should an advanced hold use cliffs as well (Bayman's adv LP hold), then the damage is again, the same. I guess you have to weigh how important cliffs are, in terms of. 1) how stages feature them (cliffs all around? or just a certain part?) 2) how many stages feature them, overall 3) how often it is to be in a position to take advantage of them (I guess really question 1) In contrast, I view "walls/objects" to be different from "cliffs" (although as SolitayreX pointed out with Bayman's adv LP hold, they are not necessarily exclusive). (I also view "slick surfaces" to be another distinct environmental effect, as well as "slope"). Different features of environments - which is why I put them in different categories when I analyze them. But you can apply the same method to guage their importance: 1) how stages feature them (objects all around? is the stage small or large?) 2) how many stages feature them, overall (objects I mean, all stages have walls) 3) how often it is to be in a position to take advantage of them (I guess really question 1) Are "walls/objects" more important that "cliffs"? I tend to think so, because they are simply more numerous (obviously... every stage has walls), depite the fact that a cliff can be more damaging. Not that cliffs aren't important, but I do think you interact with walls/objects more than you do with cliffs, in this game, on average. But then again, I always pick random when it comes to level select - some people may love cliffs, and ONLY choose levels WITH cliffs. Also, I tend to play team-battle mode a bit more than VS... so obviously I'm a little biased. However, I still think that should players choose random in VS mode, that "wall/object interaction" would occur more than "cliff interaction", on average, regardless. Another point is that although cliff damage can DIRECTLY be more damaging than wall damage... you can't get "free hits" from a cliff like you can from a "wall stun" - which could easily make a resulting combo/juggle have more impact than a cliff fall. So one could make a case that walls can be indirectly more damaging than a cliff. --- (Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a freestep backward" Current Team: Anyone but Ryu. But for sure, Hayate

From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/3/2002 2:47:15 AM | Message Detail

But at this point I'll bring up Hayabusa's standard Izuna Drop command throw, which actually gives more damage (80 pts. standard, 120 for Hi-Counter-Throw) than an Izuna Drop from a punch hold. I know we're supposed to be covering just Holds at this time, but I think it's also important to consider the mechanics of how some moves affect or COMPLEMENT other moves like holds, thus making these moves more effective. This is something I think that should come up in the "intangibles" section, when we get to it. One of the reasons why I'm trying to break up the abilities into separate categories, despite the fact that everything DOES work "in concert", or as you say, complement each other... ...is to avoid the "halo effect". I can't really find a definition right now, but it's when: - a general impression, or a single "vivid" characteristic, tends to distort assessment of other specific "less vivid" (but no less important) characteristics. Or something like that. You know the how important "first impressions" are? Why are they important? Halo effect. The initial meeting is so vivid, that impressions made that first time tend to persist. Or how a "flashy" looking hockey player can seem to be better than another player, but really isn't any more effective. Think Sergei Berezin... who thinks he's Jagr all the time. But anyway... to avoid the halo effect - placing undue weight on a particular characteristic - we have to stick to the characteristic at hand, and assess them individually. --- (Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a freestep backward" Current Team: Anyone but Ryu. But for sure, Hayate

From: mc1287 | Posted: 11/3/2002 9:20:38 AM | Message Detail

wow reading this stuff can really change your mind im glad i didnt post my list. ne ways, im starting to think that hayabusas izune is more of a psychological scare than a real one. the move looks intimidating and cool, has a hard to input command(unless you're using the uk version, on which, even in non analogue controls, u can use the stick to input commands) and cliff/hch damage scares people even more. however, it does have some advantages over baymans advanced holds. the special commands are input after a standard counter(eg B+F, then HCF+F, FC+F), and this makes the thinking time allowed slightly better. baymans advanced holds have to be performed as the move hits for best damage, and in the heat of the battle, its often hard to get a F, B+F command in successfully, especially if the opponent is mixing up moves nicely, as it is quite easily possible to get a normal counter in by reactions, but harder to hit an advanced counter. the other advantage of bayman is that his lp advanced and mp normal(im not sure but i think that the mp advanced, the one where he suplexes then does the normal counter can be turned into a wall counter, eg he suplexes then smashes the opponent into the wall) counters can be used against falling walls(eg doatec hk, temple, etc)and walls,not just cliffs which are only on two levels, lost world and temple place rooftop. BTW, im thinking of starting a geocities site to host all this stuff in a permanent record. anyone wanna help? --- "They misunderestimated me." George W. Bush FINALLY on LEGAL steroids!

From: virtuaPAI | Posted: 11/3/2002 8:34:11 PM | Message Detail

for my 2 cents. alot of my fellow hardcore members picked bayman over hayabusa, but i see things differently. when you talk about the full izuna drop(all 3 parts)compared to baymans advanced holds, they all equal out. but if you only inniciate the first step, and use it as a launcher for a juggle, you can get a decent amount of damage off your opponent and you can also combine it with environmental factors.since the hold factor of these fighters are practically equal, adding the launcher effect adds more variety with in his hold situacion. when you are on arenas that have no cliffs or what not, you can use the izuna drop as a launcher to achieve higher damage. if there is a cliff, than you can utilize the full 3step inzuna drop or like in the previous statement, you can just use it as a launcher. because hayabusa's izuna drop hold situacion is a liitle more easier, and you much more variety, I choose hayabusa over bayman. hayabusa > bayman ***when ever im next, just say it and i'll be ready*** --- controlling the dirt is nothing, to one who commands wind and rain"-storm-

From: Mr KO | Posted: 11/3/2002 10:25:01 PM | Message Detail

I see a lot of information has covered the strengths of each character's holds, so I shan't go into all that except to say that we seem to mostly agree that Lei Fang has the best holds. Why? Because she can reverse all punches and all kicks at all heights for up to 90 damage hi counter (equal to the Izuna not including cliff damage), and she is one of the few characters who can reverse jump kicks. Bayman is another. True, she can also parry, but pretty much anything she can do, Bayman can also do for the same amount of damage. Therefore, if Lei Fang's variety of counter holds and the damage she can do with them is enough to put her over the top, then it should be enough for Bayman as well. Yes, the Izuna off a cliff is formidable (I was able to get 145 in lost world), and it can also be cut short for a launcher, but I feel that the psychological edge goes to the character with whom you have to watch not only your punches, but every attack you could possibly make! That's my take on it, anyway. --- "I kill you and I take the power!" -MAXIMUS