From: Dahlsim | Posted: 11/9/2002 3:24:44 AM | Message Detail

No way... NO TIES! Remember that on a 100 point scale given later, they can be very close - make 'em differ by a single point if you want. But no ties! Lol, ;-) That's just the easy way out. I think it's very hard for them to be "equally" effective on a specific ability, bbbbbbbespecially for the "special" holds. If the characters do the EXACT same base damage, have the EXACT same cliff fall potential, the EXACT same wall damage potential, the EXACT same benefits, and these were not only the same, but were EXACTLY matched on the hit-height levels... ...only then can I see a tie. It just shows that even though holds are universal, they are hardly "generic" Well, I know what you mean but I think some criteria that may matter are a somewhat subjective. For instance reliability, someone may say they find Ryu's IZUNA Juggle combos / IZUNA full throw very reliable because they can quickly judge the distance and environment and make the right choice 90% of the time. Others may find it less reliable. It's hard to assign a number there for reliability. Or take the fear factor of Ryu's IZUNA making you hesitate or think twice about using your punch led strings. Hard to measure. How about the fact that certain stages may favor one characters hold ability a little more due to potential environmental factors? Besides... give a tie just to speed things up? They should tie because they tie, not because we want to hurry. Not just to speed things up, but because I think it really does get subjective when they are close. Speeding it up would be an added benefit if that happened, although it wouldn't necessarily. I recall hearing that Darkside's Ryu was very accurate at the recent tournament with his IZUNA. Would a very good Kasumi Teleport Parryer be just as devastating. Hmmm...... Besides, what's the rush? It'll be a long time till DOA4, and the tough analysis is good - there's obviously A LOT left still to be learned about the game. How deep would this game be if we could break everything down in just a few days? No big rush deal. Just that it would be cool to see the "DOA3 Ranking Project" extend to areas like throws, juggles, knockbacks, Stuns etc. It would be cool to come out with some lists which could always be further debated. The fact that it's taking long is a testament to the game's depth. You know how I feel about the games depth. Appears fairly simple at first but the depth is amazing. That's why I like to see more areas of gameplay covered to some degree rather than one area explored completly. Anyway carry on, good stuff, I'm looking at some other stuff in the game right now.

From: Kitsune413 | Posted: 11/9/2002 3:36:11 AM | Message Detail

doa3 could be very well vf4's equal in the depth department. I guess we just have to wait and see for the results for all our studies. *laughs* careful now. Let's not wake up any sleeping Lion's. We'll keep this the DOA depth discussion for now and wait for the five billionth annual Virtua Fighter players calling our game a "shallow scrubby button mashing rock paper scissors game" for later. =P When Itagaki talks about DOA4, he mentions making the game more 3d... I think he means making the environments mean more, etc. etc. If they can't understand that counters are 30% of the game, waiting for them to understand that the character vs environment battle is going on as much as the character vs. character fighting is going to take a higher power. =P How about the fact that certain stages may favor one characters hold ability a little more due to potential environmental factors? Well thats the thing isn't it? Not every stage is gonna be the Lost World or Lorelai. On the Lost World or Lorelai you always have to be careful of Hayabusa. But Gen Fu... You just always have to be careful. If you fight in the Danger Zone, Hayabusa's Izuna's become very high damaging advanced counters. But Gen Fu's are going to blast you into an exploding wall. In the forest the Izuna's still do a ton of damage, but Gen Fu's will sending you flying off into the distance. etc. etc. But we can't break it down by specific stages really. That would take too long. So I guess we might as well just figure that not every stage is going to have a cliff (but tons do, Azuchi's rooftop... =P) but every stage has something to blast the opponent into. Kind of gives Gen Fu an edge. But Hayabusa is always going to do a ton of damage with his punch counters. --- Anyways, Joy is more of a modern girl, she rides a bike and has big hooters (cups his chest) - Yu Suzuki

From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/9/2002 9:02:51 AM | Message Detail

VirtuaPAI: the cliff damage is minor, you probably get less than a metre or an metre of knock back potential. I believe any cliff damage alone is minor. there is only one arena with a cliff anyway. In general, I value wall interaction more than cliffs, because there are simply more of them. Even most cliff falls require a wall-break first anyway (like DOATEC, Azuchi, railings, etc.). I still see cliffs as somewhat important, even though only a few stages feature them. They are much more damaging than walls. The Azuchi roof is 30, as is some places in Lorelei, lost world is like 40? Actually... that's it? Those are the only places that feature "wall-less" cliffs. So wall interaction > cliff interaction IMO. Especially because if there's any kind of knockback into walls, that also counts for cliffs. In terms of the potential to get a cliff falls, in terms of chances, I also measure. Like if a move has a knockback into walls at 5m, it means you can knock them off a cliff that's 5m away as well. That's major (extreme example)... as opposed to something like Hayabusa's LK hold, which requires the victim to be right next to the cliff anyway, as being minor. And there are some moves that don't feature that much of wall interaction, but still have them tumble in such a way that they can fall of a cliff. -i dont mind adding kasumi onto my list, she was next anyway. this grouping of the charachters also make this evaluation go faster. Yeah, it doesn't look like it's going to be too bad. Especially once all the "special effects" are gone, and we only have to compare base damage and enviro bonuses.

From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/9/2002 9:11:28 AM | Message Detail

VirtuaPAI: I see there is some debate about hayabusa's punch holds. the full inzuna drop could be considered the advanced hold. the inzuna launcher and or the 2 step inzuna drop could be the basic hold. Yeah, we assume success rate is 100%. When you consider someone "screws" up, guess what? IF they only get the first part it's like 30. If you get the 2-step, it's only 40! So unless Hayabusa completes the whole thing, it's less than even the lowest base damage that a hold is! The damage is what makes it advanced. There are some pluses and minues: + Izuna can be performed on reaction, advanced holds require a little more forethought. - Izunas are only for punches - Izuna requires extra inputs. OTOH, once an advanced holds connects, it connects. So long as an hold is initiated, it's always 100% damage. EVERY TIME an Izuna is less than 100% complete, it's even less than a regular normal hold. In fact, you can even look at it like Hayabusa is PENALIZED for screwing up the Izuna. So it's not like the full Izuna is "bonus" damage. It's not a bonus - it's an advanced hold that requires a bit more work. So for me, overall, Izuna > normal holds (easily), but less than advanced holds (even though they can be reaction-based, being ONLY for punches is what does it, IMO). But in terms of Izuna vs parries? That remains to be seen. I'm almost convinced that Kasumi's parries > Izunas... but the other 2 characters, I'm not so sure. With Gen Fu, I think it is because it's consistently damaging enough (not as damaging per parry vs per izuna, but because they occur more often since for all strikes, and work on 2 levels, making them easier to apply). But for Lei Fang, I don't think so right now. That's only because nobody has come forth for a good follow-up (I offered a [bf+P] in the open, or a [ff+P] for a wall), that deals with the problems that the position switch causes for buffering. It's because of that, that I don't really use her parries. By the time I register which side the opponent ended up, it's too late to buffer. I could guess and buffer the move anyway, but half the time I'd guess wrong. And without buffering, the move isn't guaranteed. Whereas with Kasumi, the results are consistent (you always position switch, so you always know which way to do the [ff+P]). With Gen Fu, there's a position switch, but my recommended followup [d+P+K] is "input neutral" in that it works for both ways, eliminating the problem. The other reason I don't really use Lei Fang's parries is because that MK hold is too good to pass up - I do too much damage with it, that it makes up for it. I just stick to trying the advanced holds for hi/low, and keep the regular holds for all mids, and for reactionary holds. But then again, I don't consider myself an expert Lei Fang player because I don't use her parries. But I feel that her holds are so good, she don't even need parries! At least... MY Lei Fang doesn't need 'em ^_^ I also agree that hayabusa holds are overatted. I feel gen fu is just as deadly as hayabusa. like kitsune stated, he has good overall hold system, plus he gets alot of environmental damage for extra points. lets not for get his parrys. we are all assuming that our evaluation is based on high level play, am I correct? if so, we have to remember that a good gen fu player is going to push you into the corner most of the time, and with in that confined space, most of his holds and parries would work twice as better than from being in an open spacious area. ...I guess that's the issue right now. --- (Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a freestep backward" Current Team: Anyone but Ryu.

From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/9/2002 9:23:38 AM | Message Detail

Dahlsim: Well, I know what you mean but I think some criteria that may matter are a somewhat subjective. For instance reliability, someone may say they find Ryu's IZUNA Juggle combos / IZUNA full throw very reliable because they can quickly judge the distance and environment and make the right choice 90% of the time. Others may find it less reliable. It's hard to assign a number there for reliability. Or take the fear factor of Ryu's IZUNA making you hesitate or think twice about using your punch led strings. Hard to measure. How about the fact that certain stages may favor one characters hold ability a little more due to potential environmental factors? That's why we vote ^_^ It's the subjectiveness that requires the vote. We can be all unsure, but some are more sure one way, and others the other way. So that's why we vote. Some might flat out feel one way, others the opposite. Or some may place more weight on certain things, see certain things as significant, others view the same things as no big deal. Hence... the vote. And the fact that nobody will be in 100% agreement with the overall ranking in the end. Since we all have experienced different things, we'll all view things differently. Would a very good Kasumi Teleport Parryer be just as devastating. Hmmm...... If it were just about holds, a Kasumi teleport parrier would be MORE devasting, IMO. 1) Her parries work for all strikes, not just punches, and 2) her combos are typically more damaging, on average. Only a hi-counter Izuna Drop approaches Kasumi combo damage, and 3) combos get more enviro effects. However... it's not just about holds. I guess the above statement makes a case how Kasumi has superior holds than Hayabusa, due to her parries. But that's a statement about hold ability - NOT the characters' OVERALL ability. And again, it only talks about the character's hold potential - it says nothing about how good the player is able to pull it off in the first place. The Kasumi player could be an expert in pulling off her parries and following them up - but the opponent could be an expert in avoiding holds in the first place, and still win. That's why this tier thread is "meaningless" Hah! - when all is said and done, it's STILL about the player, rather than the character. No big rush deal. Just that it would be cool to see the "DOA3 Ranking Project" extend to areas like throws, juggles, knockbacks, Stuns etc. It would be cool to come out with some lists which could always be further debated. All in good time. Going with the hold aspect first was just to get the format and procedure down, and that took awhile. It'd be nice having a long-standing gameplay thread FOR ONCE. Remember, this thread could have easily turned out differently. Originally, I was just going to post a list, make some comments. Then everyone else would make their own, make their own comments/justifications. Everybody would have a different list. And the thread would be over in a week, and continually "bumped" with nothing more to add. The difference? The other thread would have general statements about a character's ability - based on the Halo effect. All players mentioning Hayabusa would be all about the "Izuna", Christie fans would be all about her quickness, Gen Fu and Jann Lee would be typified for their knockbacks. Mostly, we'd focus on extreme characteristics - their very best strengths, and their very worst weaknesses. We'd all focus on only a few characteristic that stood out, instead of looking at the entire character. ...and there would be very little gameplay discussion, IMO. You've seen it before. This way is much better, IMO. --- (Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a freestep backward" Current Team: Anyone but Ryu.

From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/9/2002 9:24:32 AM | Message Detail

Kitsune Well thats the thing isn't it? Not every stage is gonna be the Lost World or Lorelai. On the Lost World or Lorelai you always have to be careful of Hayabusa. But Gen Fu... You just always have to be careful. If you fight in the Danger Zone, Hayabusa's Izuna's become very high damaging advanced counters. But Gen Fu's are going to blast you into an exploding wall. That's why walls > cliffs. Just more consistent, just more numerous. EVERY stages has walls. However, explosive walls are also the extreme - there are very few of them compared to regular walls. In fact, I think explosive walls are not much more common than cliffs. So I take the regular wall bonus of 10 damage as "standard", rather than the explosive wall of 20. But even though cliffs are much more damaging (minimum 30?) Still... walls > cliffs. --- (Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a freestep backward" Current Team: Anyone but Ryu.

From: drzero7 | Posted: 11/9/2002 10:47:59 AM | Message Detail

Kasumi got the besty parry IMO, even better then Lei-Fang! I mean, backstun, combo, launcher, juggle hits ALL in one parry, geesh, her parry is as scary as Jin in Tekken 4! >_> (If I'm correct, Lei-Fang's parry, to be very powerful, needs a wall. Either that, or I haven't found out a good no-wall/cliff/hill combo after her parry.) (Note the similarities also. Both Jin's and Kasumi's parry have no garentee after poke parry. Other then that, Jin gets a free 2,4, f,f, d+4 or JFLS, 1,2,3,d+4 (Depends on what he parried). And that second combo knocks 1/2 of lifebar. It's almost like what Raigaa posted for Kasumi, ff+P (backstun), u+P, f+P, Free, u+K "Juggle") However, Lei-Fang got all other load of stuff that makes her the queen of counter. NOTE: Hey Raigaa, what's the best juggle hits of your choice after the u+K after Kasumi's parry that you posted. DAAA, I can't test these outs since my sis got the Xbox. And she doesn't really care for combos in the first place ;_;) Gen-Fu, alot of his counter just sends the foe flying across the screen >_> (This equals alot of wall damage if it's somewhere nearby.) IMO it's Parry > Counter Mainly because Parry is good and "Safer" then counter since Parry can deal both High/Mid while Counter splits on that. (Majority of good hits are from High/Med in the first place) And Since Kasumi IMO have the best parry, she beats both Hayabusa and Gen-Fu. Who's better Parry char anyway, Gen-Fu or Lei-Fang? Does Gen-Fu have launcher counters? I forgot. --- ***The Offical announcer of DoAXBV! In Zack's Island*** *********Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball*********

From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/9/2002 11:40:42 AM | Message Detail

Kasumi got the besty parry IMO, even better then Lei-Fang! I mean, backstun, combo, launcher, juggle hits ALL in one Better than Lei Fang's, better than Gen Fu's. Kasumi's are WAY better, IMO. I just love it when I'm positioned from behind. (If I'm correct, Lei-Fang's parry, to be very powerful, needs a wall. Either that, or I haven't found out a good no-wall/cliff/hill combo after her parry.) I haven't found a GUARANTEED one either. You get ONE free hit, that's it. And since she lacks a Normal Hit launcher, that means no free juggle. But a free shoulder-check is nice. And still, walls aren't that hard to come by, depending on the stage. In close-quarters (like Aquarium, or in the cave in ice cavern), or with a lot of object around (like trees in forest), the parries all of the sudden turn very deadly because of walls. And I'm still looking for a good followup like Gen Fu's... ...NOT ANYMORE! Gosh... so simple. So obvious... Because of this, I'm gonna start using Lei Fang's parries MORE, now that I have better moves for it. Although... it does mean I might sacrifice some MK hold combo opportunities. So maybe not as much as Kasumi's or even Gen Fu's... but still. My Lei Fang is going to start to parry for now on. N now, in terms of parries, I have it: Kasumi > Gen Fu/Lei Fang Gen Fu still has the slight edge, because his is a bit more powerful and has better knockback than Lei Fang's. But now they're closer than before. NOTE: Hey Raigaa, what's the best juggle hits of your choice after the u+K after Kasumi's parry that you posted. The usual, I guess. She's not much for customs, because her strings are already very good: [PP f+P, K d+K] for the lightweights, or going downlope [PP f+PP] if you want a knockback, but reliability is suspect for the middleweights, I think. [PPPK] is better for the middleweights, IMO, because it seems more reliable, and knockbacks farther (5m as opposed to 3m) ...In the end, I prefer the [PP F+PK], just because it never misses (ultra-reliable), and is OK for the heavies too. I think you have the potential do more with the [d/f d/f+K] as launcher, but that move is such pain to perform with the crappy Xbox DPad. So I just don't bother. Does Gen-Fu have launcher counters? I forgot. Nah... you must be thinking of his [qcf+Throw] (Can't wait till we get to throws and Gen Fu!) --- (Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a freestep backward" Current Team: Anyone but Ryu.

From: Mr KO | Posted: 11/9/2002 3:42:44 PM | Message Detail

Gen Fu vs Kasumi vs Hayabusa This is a toughie; even though Gen Fu has greater environmental interaction, Kasumi has the launcher and her back turning parries which are much greater than Gen Fu's (of which I haven't found all that useful, but that might be just me.) I guess what it comes down to is your ability to combo off her holds. It sounds simple, but her advanced counters are not entirely foolproof. Against moves that are too fast, it's too hard, if not impossible, to capitalize on the back turn. But against slow guys like Bass, they rule. I'm not 100% about the percentage of total moves she can exploit with it, but I'm inclined to think that it's good enough to put her above Gen Fu. Hayabusa, however, I'm not so sure. It was like the dispute between the Izuna launcher vs the Izuna Drop, when the consensus was reached that at least with the drop, the damage was guaranteed. It's effective against every type of punch in the book, regardless of speed or positioning. I had him higher on my list, and I'm not entirely sure he should be put above, but for the moment I'm leaning more towards: Hayabusa > Kasumi > Gen Fu, But perhaps, as we learn more, I may be convinced to think otherwise. --- "I kill you and I take the power!" -MAXIMUS