From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/8/2002 1:07:31 PM | Message Detail

Yeah, I don't think that we should make any opinions until somebody tests what Gen Fu can do after a parry. I'm at school, so I can't test the damage, but I do have my guide handy. That [d+P+K, P] is 60 damage. But ALWAYS 60 damage. Not bad for a strike... but nothing compared to an advanced hold. Therefore, my assertion that he "requires the environment to be damaging". It does knockback 5 metres though... ...and if he's RIGHT NEXT to the wall, he can probably do some other quick move to get the wall stun, and then wall combo. A [ff+P] seems to be a good choice to start things off. But again... that's still restricted by having the environment as a requirement. UPDATE: if he parries a MK, Gen Fu gets a 17 frame advantage! So he can do the [d/b, f+P]. Still though, I'd keep the [d+P+K,P] as the standard "out in the open" response, since it works for everything, and because of it's input, is safer to buffer than the other. Kasumi's iffy, she does a great job if you can catch the after the parry, but it's not guaranteed. To me, it's much more than "iffy". Only if you parry something that recovers quick LIKE A JAB is the recovery is so quick that it's not "guaranteed". Because of that... I feel it's practically guaranteed. Seriously, her [ff+P] is so reliable, and at 13 frames (damn quick...as quick as Bass's jab), it's not even the quickest move she has! Try an elbow then, which is 11. Or her [u+K], which at 10 frames (!) is as quick as most people's jabs! (although reach is a factor) The only other "typical" problem is that if you parry a string early... the other hits may carry the victim away, or if you parry a "lunging" move. But still... I find that 80% of the time, you're gonna get a guaranteed hit, and that's WITH only her [ff+P]. Maybe soon, I'll start using the elbow, and find that percentage increases. so for me, it happens "often enough" that: [Kasumi parry = free juggle] The only question is... damage. That combo posted above, does around 90, I'm sure - at least 1/3. And that's for EVERYONE, INCLUDING THE HEAVYWEIGHTS. On FLAT ground, no less. And NOT INCLUDING some kind of wall/cliff at the end. 1/3 lifebar for even Bass, WITHOUT all the fixin's is pretty significant, IMO. --- (Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a freestep backward" Current Team: Anyone but Ryu.

From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/8/2002 1:52:39 PM | Message Detail

VirtuaPAI: Sorry... I didn't see your post about only having it Gen Fu vs Hayabusa, and not including Kasumi for now. I think comparing them in blocks of 3 was a good suggestion by Dahlsim, to help quicken things. But it's up to you, since it's your turn. We can just ignore Kasumi right now if you want. Also, according to your stats, I missed a couple of cliff damage effects for Gen Fu: LP LK ... good call. I've also been trying to "measure" enviro damage. With walls, I note the "knockback potential" in metres, because that's what the guide tells me. For cliffs, it's more of a judgement call, and I label things "minor" or "major". I's the cliff damage potential for the LP and LK "major" or "minor", in your opinion? ============================== Dahlsim: Also is a kick parry more valuable than Ryus Kick holds? For Kasumi definitely yes. Besides, she has her MK hold anyway. Her parry on a kick guarantees (OK Kitsune, almost guarantees) 1/3 damage, IMO. The same as on a punch :) For Gen Fu... dunno. Hayabusa gets 45/56/67, with almost zero bonuses (there's that LK hold again... it barely counts for getting cliff damage). Gen Fu however, gets a minimum 60 from his guaranteed [d+P+K, P], with the HUGE potential for enviro bonuses. Even if he only gets the minimum bonus of 5 points from an angled wall, that's only 2 points less than a HI-COUNTER kick hold from Hayabusa. So overall... I'd say "Yes - a kick parry is more valuable than Hayabusa's kick holds". Not to mention the fact that their normal kick holds alone kick Hayabusa's ass anyway. (pouring more salt into the wound that is Hayabusa's kick holds) Kitsune: While I agree that if you can get the back stun off with Kasumi, I'm not positive if Hayabusa is better than Gen Fu. ...see what I mean Dahlsim? That's another one who wasn't sure that Hayabusa was 3rd (his initial opinion puts him 5th! if I'm interpreting things right) Don't get me wrong... Hayabusa could very well be 3rd. I'm just saying it's wrong to assume. I'm not sure about anything until I get home and test things out, and hear reports from others. ========================================= Kitsune: It really depends what kind of combo's can be done after Gen Fu's parry. Since he doesn't have their back, no combos are guaranteed... (hey wait... we gotta try his [qcf+P], to see if it can LS here, although I think it won't). JUST ONE FREE HIT (under 16 frames). OTOH, *IF* you have a wall nearby, then he does get a free combo, since you can use that free hit to wall stun (like a [ff+P]) and combo off that (I usually just do a [u+P] or a [d/f+P+K] to immediately launch of a wall stun). That's certainly something to consider. Otherwise, I just assume you use that one free hit to perform a powerful single strike (the [d+P+K, P] is a single strike, IMO). Sure... you can use that free hit to stun them, and play mixup. But at that point, the benefits of the parry cease to exist, because nothing is guaranteed. At that point, it's more about the mixup rather than the parry, that determines the benefits Gen Fu gets in that situation. --- (Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a freestep backward" Current Team: Anyone but Ryu.

From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/8/2002 3:12:10 PM | Message Detail

I'll be on my way soon, so hopefully tonight I can report back with numbers. Here are some Gen Fu wall combos I'm gonna test out: Oh yeah, screw that [ff+P]. I have a bad habit of completing the entire [d+P+K, P], because I "think" of the move as one... which I shouldn't. I'm currently "in training" to eliminate that bad habit. Reason being, you can use that first [d+P+K] hit to get the wall stun. And doing that [ff+P] is a Kasumi reaction after a parry (which honestly, I've only started to try to use when it comes to Gen Fu. I use parries more for Kasumi, and I really never use Lei Fang's), I have to better distance myself from acting like Kasumi if I'm Gen Fu. Anyways... middleweights: - [d+P+K] (wall stun), d/f+P+K (launch), F+K, f+PPP ...don't know what the damage is, but because it's Gen Fu, I'm sure it's pretty obscene. If I remember right, it's easily more than 1/3, approaching 1/2 I know you can end it off with a [P+K], but it moves you off axis. Another one I'm going to try is the: - [d+P+K] (wall stun), d/f+P+K (launch), P+K PP ... I don't remember if you can slip a knee or something else in there, but I'll try. For heavyweights, I'll try to find something better than the regular: - [d+P+K] (wall stun), d/f+P+K (launch), f+PPP Can't wait to get home! --- (Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a freestep backward" Current Team: Anyone but Ryu.

From: Kitsune413 | Posted: 11/8/2002 9:10:32 PM | Message Detail

At this point, I have Kasumi's as "amazing" and Gen Fu's "great", and Lei Fang's "good", assuming Amazing > Great > good 0_0 you think Gen's parries are better than Lei Fang's? How does that work? I thought she had a larger frame advantage... or was that just for her mid kick counter? Depends on how you look at Hayabusa's holds. For me, if it were JUST normal holds, I'd think Hayabusa, because the Izuna makes up for it. Then Gen Fu for his overall enviro bonuses, and then Kasumi because her MK is the only normal hold that's "special". *laughs* well thats the thing. I don't consider Hayabusa's punch counters normal counters The Izuna Drop is anything from normal. So for Normal I was kind of pulling it into normal and advanced. Kasumi's 6 counters vs. Gen Fu's 6 counters vs. Hayabusa's 3 kick counters. Kasumi's parries vs. Gen Fu's Parries vs. Hayabusa's Izuna. and I agree, I think that Gen Fu's normal counters beats out Kasumi's easily. So are her parries that much better than Gen fu's? --- Anyways, Joy is more of a modern girl, she rides a bike and has big hooters (cups his chest) - Yu Suzuki