| From: Raigaa | Posted: 10/30/2002 1:18:20 PM | Message Detail |
| For the vote, we can use a list from one of the
members to use as a launch pad. For example, say the initial list was this: LEI FANG BAYMAN HAYABUSA KASUMI GEN FU AYANE HAYATE ZACK JANN LEE HITOMI BASS LEON CHRISTIE TINA BRAD HELENA EIN ...what we would do, is pair them off, and work our way down. We'd vote on the top 2: "Lei Fang? Or Bayman?" ...is what we'd vote upon. Once that is tallied, we'd pick the loser, and then compare them to the next. Assuming LeiFang lost, and Bayman was tops, we'd rank Bayman first, eliminate him from the list, find the next person on the list, and compare Lei Fang to that person. The next fighter on the list is Hayabusa. We'd vote on: "Lei Fang? Or Hayabusa?" ...once that is tallied, etc. And continue downwards. I just thought of something... this medium is probably not the right place to do this, since it's not real time... the whole process is probably multiplied because we're using a forum... but oh well. --- (Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a freestep backward" Current Team: Anyone but Ryu. But for sure, Hayate |
| From: mc1287 | Posted: 10/30/2002 2:57:15 PM | Message Detail |
| well, im just gonna write about my new fave
girl-hitomi. 1)strikes. She does have a lot of good mixups, but i am starting to find a lack of good launchers(only dbk,p and uf+kare any good and the second's only from a critical stun) because several comein unmixuppable chains eg ffppp. possibly the best knockback character EVER(excluding ein) so on lost world etc, shes ungodly. stuns are mainly the ppfpp and uP for me, i never really go for the stunning game, i like to wait back for a great opening, then use power hits eg qcfp, bfp,qcfk all are great. alot of her power moves esp bfp come out VERY quickly, and i like to hold back against entire combos then unleash one and watch them fly back.. this shows my hitomi isnt that great(i cant really get any hyper launchy 12 hit 200000000 damage things. yet.) 2) holds(yes i know this is all we are meants to be doing but im in a school it lesson and im bored ^_^) hitomi is a fairly average holding character, but you HAVE to love her down kick hold and, to a lesser extent her mid kick hold. her down kick hold gives 30 damage, thats 10 more than lei's advanced mid kick, AND gives you a back facing opponent! that is the best. i usually use a ffppp into (ppfcancel with lighter opponents) then pfppp. that gives at least 80 odd damage plus hchold etc. after the mid kick hold, i usually use the pfppp. 3)throws well, not much to say here ¬_¬. the only really useful throw is the crouh dash(dfdfthrow) and the Fthrow can be ok(the knee to the face). the knee to face stuns, and near a wall a swift dbkp,ppp is a good follow up but a good opponent will catch this out. another technique i use is U+K into a crouch throw(works a charm on slower paced opponents). weelll i cant write much more in this lesson and this has to pass thru school admin(ie it isnt uploaded till like 3 hours after i write it) so ill write more later. this time holds only^_^! --- "They misunderestimated me." George W. Bush Proud holder of the Arnold School 2002 chilli chomping championships! |
| From: CountBrass | Posted: 10/31/2002 11:16:00 AM | Message Detail |
| COPY AND PASTE THIS AS YOU UPDATE IT: Raigaa: finished hold ranking CountBrass: finished Kitsune: generating hold ranking DJ#1: generating hold ranking drzero: generating hold ranking MM2xl: generating hold ranking mc1287: generating hold ranking Shivan (voting spot reserved) SolitayreX: generating hold ranking Mr KO: generating hold ranking I sat down and did a little research. I missed Helena's high punch counter's wall effect...but I still rank her last even with that(a wall-hold didn't exactly shoot Leon up my rankings, either) Anyway, this is done with the general premise of: 1)Advanced counters>Parries>standard counters 2)launchers>stuns>multi-parters>burst>wall 3)Damage for the base counters matters(i.e. 43 damage < 48 damage) 4)The value of "special" holds increases exponentially with each one you have 5)Being able to snag the jumping kick matters Here's the List: 1)Lei Fang 2)Ryu Hayabusa 3)Bayman 4)Gen Fu 5)Kasumi 6)Bass 7)Hitomi 8)Christie 9)Hayate 10)Ayane 11)Leon 12)Tina 13)Jann Lee 14)Ein 15)Zack 16)Brad Wong 17)Helena --- |
| From: Raigaa | Posted: 10/31/2002 12:05:11 PM | Message Detail |
| Good criteria to consider: Raigaa - Damage rating of the basic holds - advanced holds, if any, and the damage - parries, if any, and the unique benefits they give - environmental use: damage, positioning - Other, like: - do they leave them back-turned, and I get a free back stun/launch? Damage potential? - Do they allow a free ground hit? (or ground throw, for those who have them) - Do I get a free hit/stun if they don't knock down? Damage potential? CountBrass 1)Advanced counters>Parries>standard counters 2)launchers>stuns>multi-parters>burst>wall 3)Damage for the base counters matters(i.e. 43 damage < 48 damage) 4)The value of "special" holds increases exponentially with each one you have 5)Being able to snag the jumping kick matters The only other thing I would add is that I usually consider a back-turned opportunity to be greater than a launcher, *IF* a stun is guaranteed. Because if you can get a free backstun, then it means you get stun damage, AND the launcher. Basically if you backstun them, I assume you plan to also launcher them. So I have it: backstun > launchers > stuns.... Also, I had broad notions of: 1) defensibility against mid attacks 2) defensibility against high attacks 3) defensibility against low attacks In addition to that, I generally have the OVERALL notion (it's case specific, since some characters hit at levels better than others) that generally: mid > high > low ...although the differences aren't huge. I ordered them "123" above, because of that. Reason being: MID HOLDS (most important): + most of the most dangerous attacks are mid (being burst, causing stuns, and acting as launchers) + mid attacks are the most numerous, so by default mid attacks defend against more attacks than other heights + mid attacks cannot be avoided by a crouch, so they hit hi-holds AND low-holds. If stunned, mid-attacks have to be directly dealt with. HI HOLDS (still important, only slightly less): + some dangerous attacks are high (being burst, stuns, launching). In fact, having a good high launcher is an asset for the characters that have them. - although these can be ducked under - therefore while they are punished directly by a high-hold, they can ALSO be avoided via low-hold. LOW HOLDS (least important of the 3 levels): + good low attacks are good "block breakers" if someone is standing block all the time (for example Christies' d/b+PK). Good low attacks are great for stuns. - however low attacks are fewest in number - low attacks NEVER directly launch, or burst. At best they KD or stun - damage rating - low attacks have the lowest damage rating, of the 3 levels ...so I had this in mind as a general framework: "Hi / Mid / Low level defensibility" An application of this would be: mid-K hold launcher > low-P hold launcher (Ayane's, Kasumi's, Hayate's, Hitomi's) > (Christie's) So it's true that while they all launch... I generally value the mid-level ones more than the low-level one, for the reason's above. ...it also illustrates the importance of parries, for those who don't use them. They operate on 2 different levels: "standing/crouching defensibility", although the effects aren't direct like a hold is (although certain ones are potentially more damaging). --- (Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a freestep backward" Current Team: Anyone but Ryu. But for sure, Hayate |
| From: nennafir | Posted: 11/1/2002 3:53:13 PM | Message Detail |
| (HOLDS) LEI FANG > HAYABUSA Raigaa: Agree + Sure CountBrass: Kitsune: VirtuaPai: mc1287: Agree + Not Sure SolitayreX: drzero: Mr KO: nennafir: Agree + Not Sure MM2xl: Dahlsim: DJ#1: generating hold ranking Shivan (voting spot reserved) I know I'm not supposed to post my list, but I am doing so to let you see where I am coming from. I think my list is VERY preliminary right now, though. Some of the data in it might be useful to the group, which is why I'm posting it. Some of the data in it might be inaccurate, which is another reason I am posting it. Regardless, though, Lei Fang is Queen of Holds, and I have a hard time seeing her not being better than Hayabusa. I first ranked the characters according to the average damage of their holds. I realize this is a ridiculous ranking! I merely throw it out to the group to give us some extra data to play with. My final rankings will surely not be these; however, some people might find this useful and won't have to muck up the data themselves. It is taken from Prima's strategy guide, which is (hopefully?) accurate in this respect at least. Non-damaging holds/parries not counted. Multi-part holds have each subtotal count separately (e.g., if a hold has parts A and B, the "average" assigned to it is (A+(A+B))/2=(A/2)+B.) In the case of a tie, it is listed in alphabetical order. Note Ryu's peculiarly "demonic" average: 666 (number of the beast) over 13 (unlucky number.) Who knows what insidious :) numerological significance this has. Here they are listed in alphabetical order first. Ayane 43 Bass 52.4 (Think guide has error, will correct later.) Bayman 53.7 Brad 45 Christie 42.9 Ein 50.6 Gen Fu 52.9 Ryu Hayabusa 666/13=51.2 Hayate 42.9 Helena 46.3 Hitomi 47.9 Jann Lee 41 Kasumi 42.6 Lei Fang 52.1 Leon 49.6 Tina 48.1 Zack 44.4 Now here's the damage ranking from the best to the worst: Bayman 53.7 Gen Fu 52.9 Bass 52.4 Lei Fang 52.1 Ryu Hayabusa 51.2 Ein 50.6 Leon 49.6 Tina 48.1 Hitomi 47.9 Helena 46.3 Brad 45 Zack 44.4 Ayane 43 Christie 42.9 Hayate 42.9 Kasumi 42.6 Jann Lee 41 Next, here's a features list for the holds, and the number of features. Note that this is also somewhat imprecise. Combo means a hold opens up combo potential. Versatile means that one move can be used to counter both high and mid or a range. Since the spread on average damages was more or less only 10 points (from 42.6 to 53.7), I am arbitrarily deciding that the spread on features will also be 10 points. That is, each feature will be worth 5 points, so that the total spread is 10. Ayane Combo 5 Bass 0 Bayman 0 Brad 0 Christie Combo 5 Ein 0 Gen Fu Versatile 5 Ryu Hayabusa 0 Hayate Combo 5 Helena 0 Hitomi Combo 5 Jann Lee Combo 5 Kasumi Combo Versatile 10 Lei Fang Combo Versatile 10 Leon 0 Tina 0 Zack 0 So in order we get Kasumi Combo Versatile 10 Lei Fang Combo Versatile 10 Ayane Combo 5 Christie Combo 5 Gen Fu Versatile 5 Hayate Combo 5 Hitomi Combo 5 Jann Lee Combo 5 Bass 0 Bayman 0 Brad 0 Ein 0 Ryu Hayabusa 0 Helena 0 Leon 0 Tina 0 Zack 0 Adding the scores for damage and features, we obtain the final rankings. The only tie on the list is Christie and Hayate. Lei Fang 62.1 Gen Fu 57.9 Bayman 53.7 Bass 52.4 Hitomi 52.9 Kasumi 52.6 Ryu Hayabusa 51.2 Ein 50.6 Leon 49.6 Tina 48.1 Ayane 48 Christie 47.9 Hayate 47.9 Helena 46.3 Jann Lee 46 Brad 45 Zack 44.4 |
| From: Raigaa | Posted: 11/1/2002 7:26:06 PM | Message Detail |
| Well... since from mc's first post where he said he
"agree + NOT sure", we just assume that this has to come to a vote. After
the first guy choose an option that ISN'T "agree + sure", we can skip
updating the status, and just go into discussion. Here is my SINGLE POST on the matter concerning Lei Fang vs Hayabusa: LEGEND: HP = Hi Punch, MP = Mid Punch, LP = Low Punch HK = Hi Kick, MK = Mid Kick, LK = LK adv = Advanced 4m = 4 metres = distance that a move "detects" a wall/object. In comparison, Jann Lee's "big moves" (you know the ones) have a 5m range. Facts: Base damage: -Lei Fang normal holds: 47 -Hayabusa normal holds: 45 for kicks, 60 for punches (assuming Izuna) -Lei Fang advanced holds: 60 -Hayabusa advanced holds: none ...if you assume that both players are "masters" of their advanced holds, in that the Hayabusa has a 100% success rate, and Lei Fang simply uses her advanced holds - then the advantage is actually even. The base damage is the same. HOWEVER... Hayabusa's "advanced" holds are limited to punch strikes. Lei Fang's "advanced" holds catch any type of strikes. What about the enviroment? You know... big cliffs? - Hayabusa can get extra damage off cliffs ...from his punch-holds. His kick-holds have ZERO ENVIRONMENTAL INTERACTION. No walls, no objects, no cliffs, no nothing. Lei Fang can get extra damage off cliffs: - HP - adv LK ... and I think (?) she gets the same bonuses as Hayabusa does. What about the enviroment? You know... wall/objects? Lei Fang can get extra damage off walls/objects: - MP - LK - adv HP, 4m - adv LP, 4m ...in comparison, NONE of Hayabusa's holds use walls/objects. Jumping kick hold? Lei Fang = yes Hayabusa = no Parries? Hayabusa = no Lei Fang = Yes... ...she gets a 16 frame advantage. That basically guarantees her a free stun, or a free [bf+P] "shoulder check" that can start wall combos (distance 3m). If you try to punch her further into a corner, she will switch positions with you. If you try to kick yourself out of a corner, she will shove you back in, and then shoulder check you into a wall combo. other considerations: - with Hayabusa, he has the unique ability to make you afraid to punch him. No other character can do this, like he can. This makes it hard for characters that rely on punches. For characters with good kicks, this is less of a problem. However, the "fear effect" of his "punch defensibility" cannot be understated - NO OTHER CHARACTER DOES THIS. - if Lei Fang uses advanced holds, she can inflict (on average) about as much damage as Hayabusa. It doesn't look as flashy, but the effect is the same in terms of damage. - MK against Lei Fang: ...She has a 15 frame advantage if she holds your MK. whether or not Lei Fang uses advanced holds, you cannot MK Lei Fang. She will punish you BIG TIME. AND she gets your back. Back + 15 frames = free juggle, every time. Check the "advanced tech" thread to see an example of how easy she can take 1/2 of your life away, just from a MK and a wall. ======================= remeber, everyone is entitled to ONE POST. After they are all in, or if people "pass" their right to post, then we vote. --- (Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a freestep backward" Current Team: Anyone but Ryu. But for sure, Hayate |