From: SolitayreX | Posted: 10/23/2002 3:58:26 PM | Message Detail
Hmm... Is this board getting some reputation for technical gameplay info on DOA3
now? That's nice. :)
If you play the game, you would very easily note that the moves are very easy to
do. And I'm pretty sure that was intentional. So there wouldn't really be
"advanced techniques" in the sense of some powerful moves or combos that would
have equally difficult control inputs. The closest move that could be described
as having a difficult control input I could think of is Hayabusa's Izuna Drop.
And I wouldn't even call that one an "advanced technique" by itself. I'm stuck
with the US version, so I haven't seen Hayate's multi-part throw yet.
In DOA3, pulling off moves is not the issue. Pulling off the RIGHT MOVES at the
RIGHT TIME is where "skill" comes in. This is something people would like or
dislike based on their preferences. Some people prefer fighting games where some
moves take control input skill just to pull off. So someone using the "advanced
technique" moves could show off just by busting out those moves, like Akira's
moves in VF4. Also in VF4, a Throw Escape command is a technique for trying to
get out of a throw, but a Multiple Throw Escape command is said to be a more
"advanced" technique, which gives better chances to escape a throw. I also
noticed that the PS2 version of Tekken 4 has a mode just for practicing a chain
of moves and timing how long it takes you to go through them successfully. The
last moves in that mode usually have complex control inputs and are implicitly
"advanced techniques".
But what skill would be required in DOA3? Learning to read your opponent (the
human PLAYER, not just the game CHARACTER being used) so you would come up with
moves that counter your opponent's move. Also, setting up your opponent to
misread you in turn, and taking maximum advantage of it. With other fighting
games, really powerful, highly damaging moves or combos require equally complex
input commands. What would prevent powerful moves with easy controls from being
used? By designing them to have disadvantages as well as advantages withing the
gameplay system. For example, Hayabusa's throw version of the Izuna Drop gives a
lot of damage, and the other guy wouldn't even be able to escape any part of the
move once it connects. BUT as a throw move, it is easily defeated by crouching
or countering with a strike. Jann Lee's Dragon Kick is pretty powerful and easy
to pull off (just a simple qcf+K), BUT it's also easy to counter if you become
too predictable with it.
---
Here comes a new challenger! .
From: SolitayreX | Posted: 10/23/2002 4:49:23 PM | Message Detail
I notice a few posts made recently that seem to be from people new to DOA3. I
might as well mention some of the basics of the gameplay. They're VERY basic,
and I hope the regulars on this board don't feel insulted. This is just for
people who may not know much about them yet.
In DOA3, there is a COUNTER to everything, as far as I know. No, I don't mean
just the counter Holds, the reversal moves that work against most strike moves.
If you can predict a move from your opponent, you should be able to do a move
that either directly defeats your opponent's move, or at least evades that move
and set yourself up to counter attack.
I'll bring up Rock/Paper/Scissors as an ANALOGY to the BASICS of the gameplay.
Keep in mind that this does NOT in any way imply that DOA3 is "as simple as"
R/P/S. And that there would be other important elements to the gameplay.
http://s2.cgi.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.asp?board=31785&topic=4024872
Most Strike moves can be defeated by a reversal move, called a counter "Hold" in
DOA. A Hold is defeated by a Throw move. and most Throws can be easily countered
with a Strike. There are exceptions. Some Strike moves have what the DOA3
Executive Committee (^_^) decided to call a "Hold Resistant" property. A Hold
move done against that strike doesn't result in an attack reversal, but a
defensive position switch. Some characters have "Catch Throws" that work against
the beginning animations of strike moves.
Just for the sake of completeness I'll mention how Strikes usually hit at one of
three Hit-levels, and there are corresponding Holds for those hit-levels. A
Standing Throw works against a standing neutral, standing guarding, or high or
mid hit-level Holding opponent, and a Crouch Throw works against a crouching,
crouch blocking, or low hit-level Holding opponent.
There is bonus damage for Holding a Strike with relatively good timing ("Counter
Hold" would show up on the game screen), and even better better damage for
really precise timing ("Hi-Counter Hold" would show up on the screen). A
"Counter Blow" occurs when a Strike defeats another Strike. There is a lot of
Strikes that don't launch the opponent on a normal hit but would launch on a
counter hit. What makes connecting with a Throw against a Holding opponent
better than using it against someone who was only blocking? A "Hi-Counter Throw"
against a Hold gives 50% bonus damage. Intentionally getting your opponent to
attempt a Hold so you could give Hi-Counter Throw damage is very rewarding. I
would say learning to use "Hi-Counter" moves gives decisive advantage in a match
and would constitute "Advanced Techniques".
---
Here comes a new challenger! .
From: SolitayreX | Posted: 10/23/2002 5:16:36 PM | Message Detail
"Lei Fang, for instance, can unleash a serious butt-whipping on someone who gets
caught with her mid-kick standard counter-hold(I think her advanced one sets her
up too). "
Yeah, to add injury to injury, Lei Fang's Advanced Hold against a mid-kick gives
some damage, AND turns her opponent's back to her.
...
Most stun animations allow the stunned character to still attempt a hold. BUT
successfully giving a Limbo Stun to your opponent gives you a chance to follow
up with more hits without fear of a possible counter Hold. I strongly recommend
Raigaa's (ARdeMesa's) Limbo Stun FAQ.
Unfortunately, some characters are better at dishing out Limbo Stuns than
others. I don't think Hayabusa has an LS inducing strike in the US version, and
Helena's f+P gives an LS only on a counter hit. Also, most LS capable strikes
are dependent on the relative stances of the two opposing characters.
...
Insider tip: Check the aforementioned website at www.dfwgames.com/doa3 for the
info on CountBrass' Ultra-Secret, Super Advanced, Glowing Combos.
---
Here comes a new challenger! .
From: Raigaa | Posted: 10/23/2002 8:21:03 PM | Message Detail
Was saving this for SolitayreX as well, but what the hey. Already gave some Jann
stuff... here's 2 things about Lei Fang that he's gonna see this weekend:
Lei Fang's back to wall:
-
b+Throw,
d/f+PP,
P, P+K
(wall stun), u+K
(launch), PPKK
I forget the damage at the moment, but it's at least 1/2 life.
It's a
variation of a combo I use after Lei Fang's mid-kick hold:
- [mid-K hold], d/f+PP, P, u+K (launch), PPKK
...but if I find that I'm close enough to a wall after the [d/f+PP, P] string,
I'll add that extra P+K to get that wall stun.
And I'm 95% sure, that these work for everyone, including heavyweights. I'm
positive... and yes... all guaranteed.
I know, I know...
the standard thing is a [f+PK (launch), u/f+KKK] or
something... but these look better, because Lei Fang's in control much longer.
The long-duration combos are the best, IMO. More demoralizing, as the guy just
sits there holding his controller, having to wait till you're finished "playing"
with him :)
---
(Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a
freestep backward"
Current Team: Lei Fang, Tina, Hitomi, Kasumi, Hayate
From: grynn | Posted: 10/24/2002 11:56:32 AM | Message Detail
Thanks for your posts!
It seems I wasn't precise in my post.
Actually I am a VF player and DOA player.
I played a lot DOA1 and DOA2.
I only played DOA3 occasionally, but now that I have my Xbox, I am exploring the
game engine.
I heard on another forum someone talking about advanced techniques in DOA3 so I
was just wondering.
Anyway I just read the Limbo stun guide and it gave me the basic knowledge I
needed.
I also went to this site www.dfwgames.com/doa3 and found out I knew most of the
effects but not the terms referring to them ^_^
I believe the glow stuff is referring to the Zack's glow comboes correct?
BTW, nobody has frame data? I need these to find out what is guaranteed after
the b,u/f H and b,d/f H of Lei Fang, Gen Fu and Kasumi. Anybody can help me with
those?
About the crouch dash, is d/f,d/f the only way to do it or can you use other
motions as in VF4?
From: Raigaa | Posted: 10/24/2002 6:43:39 PM | Message Detail
BTW, nobody has frame data? I need these to find out what is guaranteed after
the b,u/f H and b,d/f H of Lei Fang, Gen Fu and Kasumi. Anybody can help me with
those?
I got some frame data... but tell you what. Test it out yourself, and discover
some things... shouldn't take you more than a night or so (or about an hour for
each character).
Just try it out. You may "think" you know which moves are "guaranteed" just by
playing.
The funny thing is? You're probably right.
Anyway, this is just my way of being a prick - I'll give you the numbers, I just
don't have the info on-hand right now. But they were all in the range of 13-17
frames or so (for Lei Fang and Gen Fu, at least). I know that without data on
the moves, that this doesn't help much, but just note, that the average jab is
about 10 frames, as a comparison.
However, take note too, that it takes some time to turn around and such, or dash
away, or attack, etc. So if you have their back, then you can give yourself a
few extra frames.
Seriously though... you can gather what you can do without the actual frame data
- the frame data just confirms it.
For example, nothing seems guaranteed after Hitomi's f+Throw... and nothing is.
Although she does have a 10 frame advantage (I think, something like that), so
she still has the initiative (and therefore the advantage) for mixups... but
nothing is guaranteed.
About the crouch dash, is d/f,d/f the only way to do it or can you use other
motions as in VF4?
You can also use modified versions of a double qcf... try playing around with
that.
---
(Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a
freestep backward"
Current Team: Lei Fang, Tina, Hitomi, Kasumi, Hayate
From: Gaiden00 | Posted: 10/24/2002 10:43:38 PM | Message Detail
Raigaa those are some
good combos for lei-fang,
espically the wall stun combo..
- b+Throw, d/f+PP,
P, P+K (wall stun), u+K (launch), PPKK
though i think off of a mid kick hold if you do..
[mid-K hold], qcf+p, d/f+k,free, ff+k,d/f+ppkk
you will get more damage at least 110pts without a wall, and also
another combo thats not as damaging as the first but is still good is [mid-K
hold] d/f+pp,free,p,d/f+k,ff+k,u/f+kkk for 97pts
oh and i didn't know there was frame data for doa3...if you got some can you
either post them in a faq or email me
From: Kitsune413 | Posted: 10/24/2002 11:48:17 PM | Message Detail
Well it sounds like it's all under control. but since Solitayre X went over it.
=P I'll go over basic techniques too.
The most advanced technique. ¬_¬ getting up.
*snickers* seriously. =P very few people use this.
To get up quickly, Hit the punch
button. your character will hop to their feet.
Everybody knows how to get up with a high or a low kick. If you don't know you
shouldn't be allowed Dead or Alive, Heavy Machinery and other human beings.
To get up with a step in the
background. Press Free plus Up. ^_^
To get up with a step in the foreground, Press Free plus Down. ^_^
It's really elementary but nobody uses it. So let me give you a hint on the
advanced technique of it.
Do not get up standing with the wall to your back
A lot of people complain about getting raped up against a wall over and over,
You don't have to be. Just use that technique and you'll get up away from a
wall.
Also use this to get up so that your opponents back will be to a wall. For
example, if there is a wall to your right and your opponent is infront of you,
get up to the left and punch him into said wall.
Seriously, ¬_¬ everybody likes to stand up with their back to the wall.
Don't do that unless you want to. I personally avoid the walls with everybody
except Gen Fu and Ein... in which case it is advantageous to make them believe
that your easy pray for the wall. =P They run at me and attack and after
blocking it I use a throw that will make somebody infront of you hit the wall
behind you. (Gen Fu's is forward throw. Ein's is back plus throw)
Of course, if you mess up on blocking. They will murder you. ~_~ So maybe thats
an advanced technique. ¬_¬
Which brings me to the second Advanced Technique. =P Blocking!
Just because you've got the ability to counter anything thrown at you doesn't
mean you should try.
---
Anyways, Joy is more of a modern girl, she rides a bike and has big hooters
(cups his chest) - Yu Suzuki
From: virtuaPAI | Posted: 10/25/2002 12:17:59 AM | Message Detail
"Just because you've got the ability to counter anything thrown at you doesn't
mean you should try."-kitsune-
and why is this kitsune, because holds(reversals) can get you into alot of
trouble. hey grynn, it looks like you took my advice(this is hyate). did anyone
talk about ACA(axis changing attacks). these are the moves that hit your
opponent on an axis, allowing you to hit your opponent to an environmental
variable that is on a different axis from you and your opponent.
moving blocks
are also very important in doa3(since you are constantly free
stepping). I think I mentioned this on the vf site, the slippery surfaces, since
you went to dahlsims site, you probably seen some of the stuns that occur from
being on a slippery surface. most stuns are escapable, besides wall stuns,and
limbo stuns.
is there more guys, I think there are much more....
---
controlling the dirt is nothing, to one who commands wind and rain"-storm-
From: grynn | Posted: 10/25/2002 11:45:50 AM | Message Detail
Hi Hyate!
Well yes I took your advice, as I told you I am exploring DOA3's engine.
Anyway nobody told me about ACA, referring to your description I gather Gen Fu's
QCF P,P is an ACA since is sends you flying to the side, correct?
I already knew about moving blocks but didn't know it's name before reading the
FAQs ^_^
I am using that quite a lot in DOA3 since the sidestep is finally useful which
wasn't the case in DOA2.
I don't use holds as much with the characters with the exception of Lei Fang
where I tend to mix between the push away counters (don't how they are called)
and the advanced counters.
Anyway I'll be looking for max damage opportunities after the push away
counters, but I can't check for sure what is guaranteed since I have no one to
test it on yet.
Anyway for the wake up game, I realized that there were 3 possibilities but
wasn't sure if their were more, Thanks Kitsune! Anyway Helena has a also b P+G
which allows her to smash her opponent on the wall behind her, but I find that
dangerous...
Now the only thing I really need is a good stick... Do you guys know if there is
a good converter which works with other system's sticks? Or if there is a decent
Xbox stick?
From: Dahlsim | Posted: 10/25/2002 3:41:31 PM | Message Detail
Well yes I took your advice, as I told you I am exploring DOA3's engine.
Anyway nobody told me about ACA, referring to your description I gather Gen Fu's
QCF P,P is an ACA since is sends you flying to the side, correct?
Honestly there are plenty of advanced techniques and right now there is no one
place to get at it all.
In addition to some things already mentioned, off the top of my head:
Special Environmental Surface stun properties.
Sloped Juggles.
Damage Modifiers
Crouch dash mixups
Force Crouch Throws and Catch Throws
Followups to FrameAdvantage Manuevers (this where frame-data makes it easier to
identify)
Freestep dodged moves
Half crouch
Advanced Holds, Parries, Higher damage holds and HR moves
Critical Hit setups
That's a few areas off the top of my head that I know could easily have a small
to medium sized FAQ of their own written.
A couple of things about "advanced techniques".
1)
DOA is a fast game. Using this "advanced" stuff in
a real fight means you have to be able to think and use the stuff fast or else a
simple masher will beat you out while you are "thinking" about your advanced
stuff.
2) Advanced stuff is all about getting an advantage.
If your juggles are always 10% higher damage than your opponents that will
translate into wins.
If your reversals are often Higher damage than your opponents then guess what,
that will translate into wins.
If you consistently get more environment damage on your opponent then guess
what?
So just getting better juggle damage, knowing more launchers and taking better
advantage of reversals translates into "advanced techniques" and into wins.
---
www.dfwgames.com/doa3
From: Raigaa | Posted: 10/25/2002 5:36:13 PM | Message Detail
Raigaa those are some good combos for lei-fang, espically the wall stun combo..
- b+Throw, d/f+PP, P, P+K (wall stun), u+K (launch), PPKK
No big deal... they are essentially the same thing. But I know the wall version
is like 1/2 life, all guaranteed.
though i think off of a
mid kick hold if you do..
[mid-K hold], qcf+p, d/f+k,free, ff+k,d/f+ppkk
Thanks, I'll try it out. If I remember correctly though (don't have the data
handy), that a qcf+P after a mid-K hold is NOT guaranteed - it comes up short by
something like 2 frames. I don't think they can get away by dashing, but I know
they can avoid it by attacking - Lei Fang will still get the hit, but the
problem is they'll be turned around.
At least, I think it's the [qcf+P]. But I'll check. I just know that the [d/f+P]
is guaranteed... but I remember there were a few others as well, I just don't
think it included the [qcf+P]. Still, if they don't attack right away, or try to
do something else, they'll most likely get the back-stun. That small amount of
escapability is worth it, when you factor in the payoff, right?
One other thing though, about that [d/f+K].
Usually, from behind, it gives the "falling forward on knees" stun (you know,
when they stumble forward). Is that the case here?
If that's the case, then take note that that particular stun is NOT actually a
back-turned stun... despite how it looks (I know... it's wierd). But in fact, if
you let the animation run its course, they recover facing you.
In other words... they can break that stun with a hold.
Still though, I wouldn't worry about it too much - especially if you and the
people who play don't realize the stun for what it is. For the longest time we
didn't know it wasn't a back-turned stun, and always used it. Usually that stun
was preceded by a back-stun (or LS), and once we saw our back-turned, we never
struggled or mashed the controls (scrubby), and so never "accidently" broke the
stun.
Once we found out we could break it, it was all she wrote.
But I guess it's still good to try even if they do find out you can break it, if
you pull it out only once in awhile. They can break it, but that's the only part
of the combo that can be broken - they're launched right after.
My advice? Don't tell them ^_^ I actually tried to do that at first when someone
(The Faceless Master, an old DOA2 vet) first informed us about it. The people I
play with aren't net-geeks like me, so they didn't know. So the next time we
played, I never told them - just kept doing it.
But then, like a idiot, when it came my turn to suffer the stun, I broke it.
DAMMIT! They were like "WTF?!? That's impossible!". I tried to convince him that
he merely screwed up the combo - but it was too obvious. They tested it out, and
on the very first try - BAM! Confirmed.
but is still good is [mid-K hold] d/f+pp,free,p,d/f+k,ff+k,u/f+kkk
for 97pts
...so I guess it might be the same case here, in that they can escape it with a
hold after the [d/f+K]. But again, it probably no big deal, because the point
between the [d/f+K, ff+K] is the only part that they can escape. By the time the
register the stun, they're already airborne. Good stuff.
---
(Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a
freestep backward"
Current Team: Anyone but Ryu. But for sure, Hayate
From: Kitsune413 | Posted: 10/26/2002 5:29:07 AM | Message Detail
Advanced stuff is all about getting an advantage.
If you consistently get more environment damage on your opponent then guess
what?
The other part of the advanced techniques Dahlsim didn't mention is the exact
opposite of this.
The person who knows how to take the least damage can be just as effective as a
person who knows how to dish out the most.
The key to this is Movement.
The 8 way run in DOA3 is greatly improved and thats a very imporrtant aspect
because you need to move alot.
You also need to know your enemy.
You always want to be away from the wall. You don't want your back to a wall.
Most of the time that means that if two characters are up against a wall it
seems safe to have the wall to your side.
It seems safe but it isn't. Especially in a place like the X-octagon, If your
fighting somebody like Jann Lee, Ein, Hayate, Gen Fu or Hitomi, the wall right
next to you is as good as that wall twenty feet behind you.
Against Gen Fu he couldn't care less if the wall is beside you or behind you. He
can knock you into it with a single move.
Under most circumstances, Always trry to manuever your character so that your
back is to a wide open expanse. This way if your knocked back it will be towards
an open area and you will (hopefully) not take damage.
Alot of exceptions exist. Against Gen Fu, try to make sure that walls to either
side of you are as far away as possible. He will throw you into them.
If Leon gets you with his air throw under most circumstancese he'll aim at the
nearest object... So will Bass.
In a place like the Lost World I prefer to have my back to the wall, but be
distant from it. This way if your knocked back you hit the wall instead of
shooting off an edge. Thats only good as long as they're not close enough to
take advantage of your rebounding body. In that case it can be worse. (it's
easier to go off the side than to let Hayate have you against a wall)
I'm talking about a wall. By wall I mean Anything that stands over a foot tall
and is solid. =P Tree's and Icicles are the same. Try not to have your back to
them unless you want to have your back to them.
as I mentioned earlier, I like to wait for people to charge me so I can get wall
throws that occur with your back to the wall to go off. I do this mostly because
I'm an idiot because when you rebound off a wall most characters can make you
wish you were never born. But also because it takes people by surprise.
Throws are great ways to change your environment. I've heard people ask why
there are multiple throws since they all seem to do the same thing. Why not use
the one with the most damage...
The reason being that they can improve your situation.
Let's take Hayate for example, lets say your back is to a wall and the character
blocks or counters expecting a reprisal from you. You have quite a few choices.
1. If it is a tall wall (half walls don't work) you can hold back and do a
throw. This will have him jump off the wall and bust their head into the ground.
You are now on the other side and their back will be to the wall (unless they
use a roll from the ground) they have to get up off the ground.
2. You can use back forward throw. This will flip him over the opponents
shoulders. You now have their back so all you have to do is smash them into the
wall.
Which is easier said than done. You have lag, after this move your situations
may be reversed but you still have to do something to get them against that wall
and that can be tough. (back up kick works fast. that'll get them to rebound.)
3. You can use hold forward throw. Now your situations are reversed and they're
on the ground. The same effect as one, but useful if the obstacle behind you
isn't tall enough to jump off of.
=P Use your throw results to your advantage.
Always try to keep your back away from walls and always try to have your
opponent facing them.
It's all pretty obvious! ^_^ But I run into lots of people who sidestep as much
as they tech roll. (never)
From: Kitsune413 | Posted: 10/26/2002 5:53:51 AM | Message Detail
Sun Tzu says that to know what everybody knows isn't knowledge. But I figured
I'd write that anyways.
He also wrote a book that said things like, "armies should march with the sun to
their back and hills to their right"
As it was a book of very simplistic very generalized things, Maybe a post over
overly simplistic very generalized things will be of some help to someone. =P
---
Anyways, Joy is more of a modern girl, she rides a bike and has big hooters
(cups his chest) - Yu Suzuki
From: mc1287 | Posted: 10/26/2002 8:04:36 AM | Message Detail
3)The Glow
I'm sorry. This technique is too advanced for you. I just mention it for the
sake of completeness.
roflmao!
---
"They misunderestimated me." George W. Bush
Proud holder of the Arnold School 2002 chilli chomping championships!
From: Kitsune413 | Posted: 10/26/2002 7:23:34 PM | Message Detail
Bruce Leroy had the glow.
---
Anyways, Joy is more of a modern girl, she rides a bike and has big hooters
(cups his chest) - Yu Suzuki
From: Gaiden00 | Posted: 10/29/2002 12:01:24 PM | Message Detail
Raigaa i did some experimenting, actually i told my friend to try to
counter-hold it, i found that you were right about that d/f+k. it does register
as a front facing move, however i found that it gave me a new strategy for when
someone is trying to hold the d/f+k..well its basically crounch dashing right
after doing d/f+pp,p, and if they try to counter you can hit p instead of k. by
hitting punch you will do lei-fangs low punch move d/f,D/F+P, and now the person
is stuned. then you can do another crouch dash and either do d/f+k,ff+k,then a
finsher like p,d/f+p,p+k, or you can do a throw.oh yeah, i found out that after
lei-fang's advance counter-hold b,f+free..d/f+k can't be countered, well at
least thats what my friend told me after eating the hit 100 times.
does anybody have a good wakeup game for lei-fang. i found that her regular d/f+k
is a good wake up game move. her d/f+k hits the low kick that people do when get
up, it tracks people that techroll, and it forces them to either mid kick off
the floor(the choice you want them to do),or get up and either block or hold.
do you have any good combos for lei-fang,preferably guaranteed combos,i have
lots of combos..cough strings cough but their really not guaranteed until after
the launcher cough when the real combo begins cough cough(man i hate this cold
that i got),however, they do have great mix up potential. heres a few combos
that many of you probably use..
b+P+K,stun,u+p,p,d/f+p,p+k,launch,p,d/f+p,p+k
the first three hits are high,after the u+p, you can hit f+p to go mid into
another string.
b+p+k,stun,d/f,d/f+p,free,d+k,p+k,launch,kkk
the combo hits high,low,low,mid...after the d/f,d/f+p,free, you can do d/f+k
ff+k d/f+p,p,kk
f,b+p,stun,d+k,f+p,free,u+k,launch,kkk
the combo hits high,low, mid,high after the f,b+p you can do d/f+k, ff+k, kkk
f,b+p,stun,u/f+p,f+p,k,launch,p,d/f+p,p+k
the combo hits high,mid,mid,mid
From: Gaiden00 | Posted: 10/29/2002 12:10:33 PM | Message Detail
have any of you experimented with dash cancelling..like cancelling a crounch
dash into a backdash or vice versa or maybe a forward dash into crouch dash.
normally if you do a backdash there will be a lag before you can block but if
you do a backdash then imedeatily do a half crouch dash and hold free, you will
be able to block almost instantly. i have found that if you do either a crouch
dash or a forward dash then imediately do a freestep..your freestep will be
three times as fast as before..to test it out pick someone with a natural slow
freestep..like brad wong..then do a crouch dash,and then freestep you will see a
great improvement from his regular slow freestep.
From: virtuaPAI | Posted: 10/29/2002 1:12:41 PM | Message Detail
oh, snap, people are finding out more tecniques..Im so happy.
---
controlling the dirt is nothing, to one who commands wind and rain"-storm-
From: Raigaa | Posted: 10/29/2002 1:58:27 PM | Message Detail
Raigaa i did some experimenting, actually i told my friend to try to
counter-hold it, i found that you were right about that d/f+k.
DOH! Why did you tell him? ^_^
it does register as a front facing move, however i found that it gave me a new
strategy for when someone is trying to hold the d/f+k..well its basically
crounch dashing right after doing d/f+pp,p, and if they try to counter you can
hit p instead of k. by hitting punch you will do lei-fangs low punch move d/f,D/F+P,
and now the person is stuned. then you can do another crouch dash and either do
d/f+k,ff+k,then a finsher like p,d/f+p,p+k, or you can do a throw.oh yeah,
Yeah... even the other ones are still OK, like I said, they have a chance to
hold, but it's only a small chance. However, instead of stunning them again, I'd
probably just to throw them. In other words, I'd have 2 choices after that [d/f+K]
that turns them around: 1) complete the combo as before (launching them with the
[ff+K] you mentioned) or 2) throw them.
I guess I play like a wussy that way, in avoiding risk to my character. If you
stun them, you do run the risk of eating a hold. If you throw, and they don't
hold like you wanted them too, then you might run the risk that they'll recover
from the stun before you do, but at least you won't suffer a hold. And from that
particular stun, the "falling forward on knees", I don't think that's the case
however, where they'd recover that much before you do.
i found out that after lei-fang's advance counter-hold b,f+free..d/f+k can't be
countered, well at least thats what my friend told me after eating the hit 100
times.
Yeah, the [bf+Free] allows you a free hit, so long as it's quicker than 16
frames. That includes the d/f+K. But again, if the result is a "falling forward
on knees" stun (like say... you do the [d/f+K] again), then they are technically
front-facing again... so I wouldn't recommend use of the move if you already
have a backstun, if you want things to stay guaranteed.
But again, if you launch them right away it shouldn't matter, especially if you
have the threat of a throw to back it up.
does anybody have a good wakeup game for lei-fang. i found that her regular d/f+k
is a good wake up game move. her d/f+k hits the low kick that people do when get
up, it tracks people that techroll, and it forces them to either mid kick off
the floor(the choice you want them to do),or get up and either block or hold.
I didn't realize it was such a good move for that. Thanks.
I usually stick to either holding the mid-kick rising attack (so I can get that
combo I posted before), and use the K+Free to keep them down otherwise.
From: Raigaa | Posted: 10/29/2002 1:58:47 PM | Message Detail
do you have any good combos for lei-fang,preferably guaranteed combos,i have
lots of combos..cough strings cough but their really not guaranteed until after
the launcher cough when the real combo begins cough cough(man i hate this cold
that i got),however, they do have great mix up potential. heres a few combos
that many of you probably use..
b+P+K,stun,u+p,p,d/f+p,p+k,launch,p,d/f+p,p+k
the first three hits are high,after the u+p, you can hit f+p to go mid into
another string.
b+p+k,stun,d/f,d/f+p,free,d+k,p+k,launch,kkk
the combo hits high,low,low,mid...after the d/f,d/f+p,free, you can do d/f+k
ff+k d/f+p,p,kk
f,b+p,stun,d+k,f+p,free,u+k,launch,kkk
the combo hits high,low, mid,high after the f,b+p you can do d/f+k, ff+k, kkk
f,b+p,stun,u/f+p,f+p,k,launch,p,d/f+p,p+k
the combo hits high,mid,mid,mid
Nice strings here. You play a braver, and therefore potentially more damaging
Lei Fang than I do.
I don't use her stun's enough, like the [fb+P], or the [b+P+K]. The only one I
really use is the [u+P] for the phenomenal range + quickness = high priority,
that it has. Even after that, I like to launch right away or throw... I don't
extend the stuns like you do.
I use the [u+P], and either launch with the [u+K, Free] or a [ff+K], or just a
crappy [u/f+KKK]. I also use the [d/f+K, P] more often then I should :( If it's
not the [u+P], then it's the [f+P], and even then I usually just launch right
away with the full [f+PK, Free] just because it's so quick.
I used to do that a lot... extend stuns I mean. I used to use jab-pokes a lot
too (like in the Jann faq), but I as SolitayreX found out, I play much
differently now then when I did back in January (when I wrote most of the
stuff). I guess I just play less risky then I did before... at the expense
though, that the damage payoff is less then before, I admit. I usually just
stick to the guaranteed stuff right now.
From: Raigaa | Posted: 10/29/2002 2:12:41 PM | Message Detail
have any of you experimented with dash cancelling..like cancelling a crounch
dash into a backdash or vice versa or maybe a forward dash into crouch dash.
normally if you do a backdash there will be a lag before you can block but if
you do a backdash then imedeatily do a half crouch dash and hold free, you will
be able to block almost instantly. i have found that if you do either a crouch
dash or a forward dash then imediately do a freestep..your freestep will be
three times as fast as before..to test it out pick someone with a natural slow
freestep..like brad wong..then do a crouch dash,and then freestep you will see a
great improvement from his regular slow freestep.
Not really... the only techniques I do with the dash is:
it to get (WS) moves to come out with having to go into full crouch;
to incorporate crouch-dash moves and crouch-dash throw mixups;
and when I backdash, and I want to use Free to block, I hit [f+Free] or [d/f+Free]
to avoid the hold - this obviously doesn't work for those who have [bf] advanced
holds and parries. A case would be such as Ein - I'd backdash, want to block a
hit with the free (so I can buffer a bf+Punch). The only way to do that is to
hit [f] while I hit (then hold) Free to cancel the backdash and to avoid
performing a hold. And then I'm free to buffer the [bf+P]
I knew that you can cancel a dash into anything, but when going forward I never
cancelled it into a freestep (usually do some sort of attack or throw).
I didn't know that it moves faster as a result... does it really move faster?
In-close, I thought that the reason that the freestep seems to move faster, is
because your character is moving in a smaller circle (around the opponent as a
midpoint), and therefore the background scrolls faster as a result (especially
if the opponent stands still). But it's an illusion - the speed is the same. In
fact, if there were no background, to give the illusion, just a black backdrop,
it'd probably be easy to see that the freestep is the same constant speed,
regardless of distance.
Perhaps it only seems to go faster is because with the crouch-dash you've moved
closer to the opponent?
---
(Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a
freestep backward"
Current Team: Anyone but Ryu. But for sure, Hayate
From: Gaiden00 | Posted: 10/30/2002 7:26:13 PM | Message Detail
I don't use her stun's enough, like the [fb+P], or the [b+P+K]. The only one I
really use is the [u+P] for the phenomenal range + quickness = high priority,
that it has. Even after that, I like to launch right away or throw... I don't
extend the stuns like you do.
yeah i do agree with you that her [u+P] does have high priority,however, i like
using her d/b+p,p. you can not include the second punch by hitting d/b+p,free
(hitting free cancels the second punch that comes after the move) but it only
stuns on counter hit, but the move has a very high priority on all high attacks
which will give you the counter hit,and since the move hits mid it has priority
on most low attacks.another thing about lei-fangs d/b+p is on high attacks that
makes your opponent turn around..such as ayane's normal [k] or christies [b+p,k],
it stuns them leaving their back turned for a combo.
oh and as for launching the opponent with the full [f+p,k], i wouldn't really
recommend that because even though the move comes out lighting fast,it can still
be countered by doing either a mid or high hold. i think your better off just
doing the regualar p+k,free. it can be countered mid and high also but i think
it catches most people off guard.
oh and about the free step, i am not sure if your right or not about it
appearing to move because the characters are moving in a smaller circle,but iam
going to get back to you after i do some experimenting. But if it turns out to
be an illusion, it sure still is impressive because it makes your character
appear to be moving faster especially if you keep cancelling into the freestep
crounch dash ,and forward repeatedly.
finally heres another combo thats not guaranteed until the launher and can only
be done on stages that have hills like the snow and forest. any the combo is
u+p,d/f+k,p,ppd+p,d/f+k,p on regular hit, and on a high counter you can do u+p,d/f+k,p,ppd+p,ppd+p,d/f+k,p...another
ppd+p was added to combo
oh if you think off any combos or stratgies for lei-fang or hayate let me know.
From: Raigaa | Posted: 10/31/2002 4:31:01 PM | Message Detail
yeah i do agree with you that her [u+P] does have high priority,however, i like
using her d/b+p,p. you can not include the second punch by hitting d/b+p,free
(hitting free cancels the second punch that comes after the move) but it only
stuns on counter hit, but the move has a very high priority on all high attacks
which will give you the counter hit,and since the move hits mid it has priority
on most low attacks.
I usually just stick to these [u+P], [f+P], [d/b+K and d/b+KK], and the [dd+K]
when I want to interrupt, but the [d/b+P] is good as well. The [d/b+P] is better
than the [f+P] for mid-level, because it duck under high attacks really good,
but I like the threat of the 2nd hit of the [f+PK] to back it up better than the
[d/b+PP]. They both have their uses.
another thing about lei-fangs d/b+p is on high attacks that makes your opponent
turn around..such as ayane's normal [k] or christies [b+p,k], it stuns them
leaving their back turned for a combo.
Yeah, that's the best part about it - it ducks under high attacks well. But it
doesn't really turn them around - it's just that when those characters perform
those particular moves, they turn around themselves, and you happen to be
interrupting them while they do it. Unfortuneatly (or maybe fortuneately), Lei
Fang has no LS... but she doesn't need one. She gets them backturned just fine.
oh and as for launching the opponent with the full [f+p,k], i wouldn't really
recommend that because even though the move comes out lighting fast,it can still
be countered by doing either a mid or high hold. i think your better off just
doing the regualar p+k,free.
Nah... I find the [f+PK] works just fine. Reason being, is that I don't use it
to extend stuns, or launch when they're already stunned. I use it primarily as
in interrupt. I use it to snuff their attacks, and it does it well. The elbow
wins on priority a lot (and CH's), and the Knee comes out so quickly it hits
them before they realize their attack was interrupted.
It doesn't work well when they're already stunned, because when they're stunned,
they're thinking defensive, and being reactive, and are primed and ready to use
a hold or not. But when they're attacking, they're only thinking offense - and
thats how they can get beat by the [f+PK].
oh and about the free step, i am not sure if your right or not about it
appearing to move because the characters are moving in a smaller circle,but iam
going to get back to you after i do some experimenting. But if it turns out to
be an illusion, it sure still is impressive because it makes your character
appear to be moving faster especially if you keep cancelling into the freestep
crounch dash ,and forward repeatedly.
I'm sure it's an illusion. Without the background, it'd be easy to see, I think.
I'm pretty sure they wouldn't program something that went "As distance
decreases, freestep speed increases". It's just the smaller arc - think of a car
going 30 km/h at a radius of 50m, and then have the same car go 30 km/h at a
radius of 25m. The car in the smaller circle will complete it's orbit first,
because it has less distance to travel, but it's still only going 30 km/h. And
if you were at the centre of the circle, rotating to keep up with the car as it
moved around, you'd find you'd be spinning quicker... but the car you're
following is still going 30 km/h.
---
(Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a
freestep backward"
Current Team: Anyone but Ryu. But for sure, Hayate
From: Raigaa | Posted: 10/31/2002 6:00:26 PM | Message Detail
You always want to be away from the wall. You don't want your back to a wall.
Most of the time that means that if two characters are up against a wall it
seems safe to have the wall to your side.
It seems safe but it isn't. Especially in a place like the X-octagon, If your
fighting somebody like Jann Lee, Ein, Hayate, Gen Fu or Hitomi, the wall right
next to you is as good as that wall twenty feet behind you.
Against Gen Fu he couldn't care less if the wall is beside you or behind you. He
can knock you into it with a single move.
...more somewhat-redundant-nothing-new-type info from the frame data I have...
They list the "wall/object detection" ability of moves as measured in metres.
Moves can detect a wall from as little as 1 metre away, like Gen Fu's [u/f+P],
up to 5 metres away (like... Jann's moves... pick one).
So now, instead of me saying stuff like "that move gives a small knockback", or
a "big knockback".... I'm able to make it all technical sounding by saying "wall
detection up to 3.5 metres". =P
---
(Aeon) "The last thing i'll say on the subject is that you cannot block during a
freestep backward"
Current Team: Anyone but Ryu. But for sure, Hayate